I was with you until the last paragraph. I think it is apples and oranges but still all fruit. At the tire center they have profit sharing. The more sales the store does, the larger the bonus at the end of the year. How do you do that with a city type job? The number of lines painted? Blades of grass mowed? Papers filed in the cabinet? Does their work contribute to a "profit"? How do you measure the city's "profit"? Low crime? Pedestrian and bicycle friendly? Fire hydrants that work? <br><br><b><i>Art Deco <deco@moscow.com></i></b> wrote:<blockquote class="replbq" style="border-left: 2px solid rgb(16, 16, 255); margin-left: 5px; padding-left: 5px;"> <meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=iso-8859-1"> <meta content="MSHTML 6.00.6000.16441" name="GENERATOR"> <style></style> <div>I enjoy Kit Craine's posts in part because of all the potential political candidate's who write on V 2020, her posts
exhibit the most clear and intelligent understanding about how things governmental should function in practice, and how they don't function because of X, Y, Z, ...</div> <div> </div> <div> </div> <div>I did not witness Aaron Ament's actions, so I cannot speak upon entirely on their appropriateness. However, I have been in similar situations.</div> <div> </div> <div>In general, when I have been in situations where timely (or complete) information was given not given to decision makers, the causes were:</div> <div> </div> <div>1. The preparation staff was generally overworked and struggled with the best of intentions to get the work out,</div> <div> </div> <div>2. The preparation staff was poorly managed, did not work at an acceptable work pace, and/or did not give appropriate priority to producing the requested information on time or completely, or</div> <div> </div> <div>3. The preparation staff
intentionally, many times with the covert or overt impetus of their management, produced information only at the last minute (and sometimes incompletely) in order to attempt to sway the decision under consideration one way or another. This is a classic tactic used by a staff and their management to control a board who are, at least by law or organizational structure, supposed to be ultimately in charge of the staff and their management.</div> <div> </div> <div> </div> <div>In one case, several of us served <em>pro bono</em> on an economic development loan board for northern Idaho, an activity that took a bit of time to do diligently. This board was administered by the well paid staff of an administrative body (hereinafter AB).</div> <div> </div> <div>If the AB staff had decided in advance that a certain loan should be granted, but felt that it would not be granted if the application was given diligent examination by the loan board, the
AB staff would not present the loan package until the meeting (sometimes the package was even then incomplete), and then the staff would insist that the board must act upon the application that night. </div> <div> </div> <div>Unfortunately for the AB staff, the people first appointed to the loan board by three sets of county commissioners were not quite such fools. They always voted to table consideration of an application until they had timely and complete information (getting the latter was often a real struggle since the AB staff and/or the applicant tended to not provide information that might have an adverse impact on the board's decision). If the AB staff insisted that a decision must be made the night we first received the loan application package, we voted the proposal down. As expected, the application was sent up again, and sometimes again and again until the board felt it
had adequate information and time to consider it and make a diligent decision.</div> <div> </div> <div>At first we gently tried to persuade AB staff to provide us with timely, complete information for all applications. To no avail. Whenever a risky or inappropriate application was put before us, it was not timely and/or complete. After this happened several times accompanied by our polite requests for more timely, complete information, our patience ended. A stormy session ensued. It was recorded and a partial transcript was given to the sets of county commissioners. After that, information became more timely and complete, although we had began to have more (intentional?) problems with the integrity of the application materials which caused more delays in processing.</div> <div> </div> <div>The AB staff had the last laugh, however. They persuaded enough commissioners to replace some
members of the board with less technical, less qualified, more acquiescent persons. The result was that more loans were made, but the failure rate of the projects they were to support, and hence the repayment failure rate went up substantially, although some favorite projects of the AB staff were funded (often followed by failure and loan payment default).</div> <div> </div> <div> </div> <div>Perhaps some Moscow citizens would care to speculate on the specific applicability of 1, 2, and 3 above. </div> <div> </div> <div>I have not directly observed the pace of work of the inside city staff so I cannot make an informed comment. I have observed the pace of those working outside. While their snail-like pace is probably mostly the result of incompetent, inattentive management, I would personally be deeply ashamed to accept a paycheck for working so slow and/or inefficiently as some do.</div> <div> </div> <div>If the mayor,
city council, or any citizen doubts the truth of the last two sentences of the above paragraph here's a suggestion: Pay a visit to the Les Schwab Tire Center; observe the pace of work there. Then surreptitiously observe the pace of work of those painting lines and turn arrows on the city streets, trimming trees, etc. Your city tax dollars at work.</div> <div> </div> <div> </div> <div>W.</div> <div> </div> <div> </div> <div> </div> <div> </div> <div>----- Original Message ----- <div>From: "Craine Kit" <<a href="mailto:kcraine@verizon.net">kcraine@verizon.net</a>></div> <div>To: "Vision 2020" <<a href="mailto:vision2020@moscow.com">vision2020@moscow.com</a>></div> <div>Sent: Thursday, June 07, 2007 12:09 AM</div> <div>Subject: Re: [Vision2020] A Sad Night for Moscow</div></div> <div><br></div> <div>> Excuse me, g.<br>> <br>> First, I am not "hansen". If you want to piss on him, do it in
<br>> response to one of his posts.<br>> <br>> Second, reread my comments. I, as a taxpayer in this city, expect my <br>> elected representatives understand what they are voting on before <br>> they say yea or nay. I, as a citizen, need to know what information <br>> will be used in a decision IF I am going to make an informed comment. <br>> Neither I nor the Council can fully consider the consequences of a <br>> decision if essential facts are presented as the Councilors walk into <br>> a meeting. Staff being allowed to insert information at the last <br>> minute is a question of TIMING, not a target of someone's "pique."<br>> <br>> A decision based on last minute input is NOT necessarily a good one.<br>> <br>> Kit Craine (a female who always provikes a negative response from g.)<br>> </div> <div> </div> <div>Original Post:</div> <div> </div> <div>I agree
with Aaron Ament. The City Council is conducting the people's <br>business: making contracts, passing laws, and--most importantly-- <br>spending our money. Just as a smart person takes time to read and <br>understand the fine print in a contract before signing it, I expect <br>our representatives to do no less when committing our community and <br>our dollars to something.<br><br>Furthermore, we--the people--have a right to participate in our <br>government. We should be able to review the same information the <br>Council will see so we can make informed comments.<br><br>Neither the Council nor the people can do their jobs well when <br>pertinent information is not available until just before a decision <br>is made. That has nothing to do with the competence of the staff and <br>everything to do with timing. When important information arrives too <br>late to fit into the packet, perhaps the matter
should be tabled <br>until the next meeting.<br><br>Kit Craine<br><br></div> <div> </div> <div> </div> <div><br>> <br>> On Jun 6, 2007, at 3:42 PM, g. crabtree wrote:<br>> <br>>> "When important information arrives too<br>>> late to fit into the packet, perhaps the matter should be tabled<br>>> until the next meeting."<br>>><br>>> So why does Ament not simply make that motion? In what way is the <br>>> process improved by his treating the staff and the audience both <br>>> televised and in attendance to yet another of his famous fits of <br>>> pique? I would think that there will always be the potential for <br>>> new or updated information to come in after the meetings agenda has <br>>> been set and the packets put together, running down the staff for <br>>> trying to make sure he has the most up to date information possible
<br>>> is unappreciative and crass.<br>>><br>>> As an aside for hansen: As a youth, had I told one of my peers to <br>>> "shut up" I would have likely been admonished and sent on my way. <br>>> Had I thrown a public hissy fit, spreading my juvenile attitude <br>>> over people who were trying to help me, I'd most certainly have <br>>> been shown a far harsher discipline.<br>>><br>>> g<br>>><br>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Craine Kit" <<a href="mailto:kcraine@verizon.net">kcraine@verizon.net</a>><br>>> To: "Saundra Lund" <<a href="mailto:sslund@roadrunner.com">sslund@roadrunner.com</a>>; "Vision 2020" <br>>> <<a href="mailto:vision2020@moscow.com">vision2020@moscow.com</a>><br>>> Cc: "Stout Bob" <<a href="mailto:bstout@ci.moscow.id.us">bstout@ci.moscow.id.us</a>>; "Ament Aaron" <br>>> <<a
href="mailto:aaronament@moscow.com">aaronament@moscow.com</a>>; "Lambert Bill" <<a href="mailto:blambert@ci.moscow.id.us">blambert@ci.moscow.id.us</a>>; <br>>> "Chaney Nancy" <<a href="mailto:nchaney@ci.moscow.id.us">nchaney@ci.moscow.id.us</a>>; <<a href="mailto:sears@moscow.com">sears@moscow.com</a>><br>>> Sent: Wednesday, June 06, 2007 10:41 AM<br>>> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] A Sad Night for Moscow<br>>><br>>><br>>>> I agree with Aaron Ament. The City Council is conducting the people's<br>>>> business: making contracts, passing laws, and--most importantly-- <br>>>> spending our money. Just as a smart person takes time to read and<br>>>> understand the fine print in a contract before signing it, I expect<br>>>> our representatives to do no less when committing our community and<br>>>> our dollars to something.<br>>>><br>>>>
Furthermore, we--the people--have a right to participate in our<br>>>> government. We should be able to review the same information the<br>>>> Council will see so we can make informed comments.<br>>>><br>>>> Neither the Council nor the people can do their jobs well when<br>>>> pertinent information is not available until just before a decision<br>>>> is made. That has nothing to do with the competence of the staff and<br>>>> everything to do with timing. When important information arrives too<br>>>> late to fit into the packet, perhaps the matter should be tabled<br>>>> until the next meeting.<br>>>><br>>>> Kit Craine<br>>>><br>>>><br>>>> On Jun 5, 2007, at 4:12 PM, Saundra Lund wrote:<br>>>><br>>>>> Visionaires:<br>>>>><br>>>>> No matter how you feel about the issue that was under
discussion, <br>>>>> I am<br>>>>> absolutely appalled at John Weber's behavior during last night's <br>>>>> City<br>>>>> Council meeting :-( For him to publicly tell another Council<br>>>>> member with<br>>>>> whom he disagrees to "shut up" is simply beyond the pale. Stupid<br>>>>> mistakes<br>>>>> like that do far more to harm our community than do honest<br>>>>> disagreements.<br>>>>><br>>>>> What happened to your manners, Mr. Weber? Did you not stop to<br>>>>> ***think***<br>>>>> about your behavior being televised into homes in our community?!?<br>>>>> Even my<br>>>>> 17-year-old knows it's incredibly rude and disrespectful to tell<br>>>>> another to<br>>>>> "shut up." She, BTW, was gleefully (I'm sorry to
say) horrified<br>>>>> reading<br>>>>> about your spectacle last night. I had to explain to her I was<br>>>>> sure your<br>>>>> mother *had* raised you better, but people sometimes make mistakes<br>>>>> in the<br>>>>> heat of the moment or not, as she well knows, and that when you <br>>>>> make a<br>>>>> mistake, you apologize, learn from the mistake, and carry on.<br>>>>> "Where's his<br>>>>> apology?" was her question. It's mine, too.<br>>>>><br>>>>> We're waiting for an apology, Mr. Weber -- one is certainly due<br>>>>> from you to<br>>>>> all who witnessed or read about your rude and disrespectful<br>>>>> behavior last<br>>>>> night.<br>>>>><br>>>>><br>>>>><br>>>>> Saundra Lund<br>>>>>
Moscow, ID<br>>>>><br>>>>> The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good people<br>>>>> to do<br>>>>> nothing.<br>>>>> - Edmund Burke<br>>>>><br>>>>> Moscow-Pullman Daily News<br>>>>><br>>>>> Big-box changes nixed<br>>>>> By Omie Drawhorn, Daily News staff writer<br>>>>><br>>>>> Tuesday, June 5, 2007 - Page Updated at 12:00:00 AM<br>>>>><br>>>>> Tempers flared at Monday night's Moscow City Council meeting,<br>>>>> during which<br>>>>> the council rejected any amendments to the large retail <br>>>>> establishment<br>>>>> ordinance.<br>>>>><br>>>>> "We already have a dark-store ordinance in there that is stronger<br>>>>> than what<br>>>>> planning and zoning brought us," Councilman
Aaron Ament said. "I<br>>>>> want to see<br>>>>> a cap. A cap would serve this community well. We have a big-box<br>>>>> shopping<br>>>>> culture that's just about run its course in this country; we're<br>>>>> making sure<br>>>>> they mitigate for problems they cause the community. Moscow would<br>>>>> be crazy<br>>>>> to drop all the rest and just let them come into the city on <br>>>>> their own<br>>>>> terms."<br>>>>><br>>>>> Ament went on to say he was frustrated that Moscow city staff<br>>>>> members hand<br>>>>> him important documents just minutes before the start of a meeting.<br>>>>><br>>>>> "I'm so tired of coming to sit down and have people flip papers for<br>>>>> me to<br>>>>> read," he said. "I seriously read everything put in
the packet, and<br>>>>> I find<br>>>>> it insulting for them to expect me to read it in a couple of <br>>>>> minutes."<br>>>>><br>>>>> At that point, Councilman John Weber interrupted Ament.<br>>>>><br>>>>> "We have pretty qualified people over here who do a very good job;<br>>>>> I don't<br>>>>> need you running off on them," he said. "Why don't you just shut <br>>>>> up?"<br>>>>><br>>>>> Moscow Mayor Nancy Chaney said Weber interrupted Ament at "the<br>>>>> appropriate<br>>>>> time."<br>>>>><br>>>>> "I hope we can retrieve a little civility on all sides,"<br>>>>> Councilwoman Linda<br>>>>> Pall said.<br>>>>><br>>>>> The amendments recommended by the planning and zoning commission<br>>>>>
included:<br>>>>><br>>>>> A large retail establishment would have to expand by at least 30<br>>>>> percent<br>>>>> before it would be required to apply for a conditional use permit;<br>>>>><br>>>>> Big-box stores between 40,000 and 65,000 square feet would be<br>>>>> subject to the<br>>>>> design manual - which includes standards for the exterior and<br>>>>> interior of<br>>>>> buildings - at the discretion of the board of adjustment;<br>>>>><br>>>>> Any business requiring 140 or fewer parking spaces would not be<br>>>>> subject to<br>>>>> the parking requirements of the design manual;<br>>>>><br>>>>> Size be based on gross floor space as opposed to projected roof <br>>>>> area,<br>>>>> thereby eliminating outdoor storage areas from the
calculated square<br>>>>> footage.<br>>>>><br>>>>> The planning and zoning commission also recommended a guideline for<br>>>>> stores<br>>>>> that go dark in Moscow to follow.<br>>>>><br>>>>> The large retail establishment ordinance, passed in February 2006,<br>>>>> requires<br>>>>> retail stores with more than 40,000 square feet of gross floor area<br>>>>> to apply<br>>>>> for a conditional use permit.<br>>>>><br>>>>> The council heard public testimony on the proposed amendments May 7.<br>>>>><br>>>>> Councilman Bill Lambert said the conditional use permit process<br>>>>> already<br>>>>> gives the city enough control on which businesses are allowed to<br>>>>> locate<br>>>>> within the city.<br>>>>><br>>>>> "The
big-box ordinance as it stands now is a tough enough ordinance<br>>>>> we're<br>>>>> not going to need (amendments) like this to prevail," he said. "The<br>>>>> dark-store issue can be dealt with at the time the conditional use<br>>>>> permit is<br>>>>> requested."<br>>>>><br>>>>> Weber agreed.<br>>>>><br>>>>> "With the dark store ordinance, what we have done here is put in <br>>>>> some<br>>>>> verbiage that would make it almost impossible for anybody from the<br>>>>> city to<br>>>>> enforce or get a handle on," he said. "We've choked it off to the<br>>>>> point that<br>>>>> nobody really wants to come here anyway."<br>>>>><br>>>>> In other business, the council reversed a board of adjustment<br>>>>> decision that<br>>>>>
granted a conditional use permit for a proposed a Dutch Bros.<br>>>>> coffee outlet<br>>>>> with a drive-through window at 525 S. Jackson St.<br>>>>><br>>>>> QUICKREAD<br>>>>><br>>>>> WHAT HAPPENED: The Moscow City Council rejected amendments to the<br>>>>> large<br>>>>> retail establishment ordinance recommended by the planning and <br>>>>> zoning<br>>>>> commission.<br>>>>><br>>>>> WHAT IT MEANS: The large retail establishment ordinance will not<br>>>>> include a<br>>>>> size cap. The original dark-store provision remains the same.<br>>>>><br>>>>> WHAT HAPPENS NEXT: The ordinance will remain as originally written.<br>>>>><br>>>>> WHY YOU SHOULD CARE: The ordinance affects businesses greater than<br>>>>>
40,000<br>>>>> square feet that want to move into Moscow.<br>>>>><br>>>>> Omie Drawhorn can be reached at (208) 882-5561, ext. 234, or by e-<br>>>>> mail at<br>>>>> <a href="mailto:odrawhorn@dnews.com">odrawhorn@dnews.com</a>.<br>>>>><br>>>>><br>>>>><br>>>>><br>>>>> =======================================================<br>>>>> List services made available by First Step Internet,<br>>>>> serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.<br>>>>> <a href="http://www.fsr.net">http://www.fsr.net</a><br>>>>> <a href="mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com">mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com</a><br>>>>>
=======================================================<br>>>><br>>>> =======================================================<br>>>> List services made available by First Step Internet,<br>>>> serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.<br>>>> <a href="http://www.fsr.net">http://www.fsr.net</a><br>>>> <a href="mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com">mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com</a><br>>>> =======================================================<br>>><br>>><br>> <br>> =======================================================<br>> List services made available by First Step Internet, <br>> serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.
<br>> <a href="http://www.fsr.net">http://www.fsr.net</a> <br>> <a href="mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com">mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com</a><br>> =======================================================<br>></div>=======================================================<br> List services made available by First Step Internet, <br> serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994. <br> http://www.fsr.net <br> mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com<br>=======================================================</blockquote><br><p> 
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