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<DIV>I enjoy Kit Craine's posts in part because of all the potential political
candidate's who write on V 2020, her posts exhibit the most clear and
intelligent understanding about how things governmental should function in
practice, and how they don't function because of X, Y, Z, ...</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>I did not witness Aaron Ament's actions, so I cannot speak upon entirely on
their appropriateness. However, I have been in similar situations.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>In general, when I have been in situations where timely (or complete)
information was given not given to decision makers, the causes were:</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>1. The preparation staff was generally overworked and struggled with the
best of intentions to get the work out,</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>2. The preparation staff was poorly managed, did not work at an
acceptable work pace, and/or did not give appropriate priority to producing the
requested information on time or completely, or</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>3. The preparation staff intentionally, many times with the covert or
overt impetus of their management, produced information only at the last minute
(and sometimes incompletely) in order to attempt to sway the decision under
consideration one way or another. This is a classic tactic used by a staff
and their management to control a board who are, at least by law or
organizational structure, supposed to be ultimately in charge of the staff and
their management.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>In one case, several of us served <EM>pro bono</EM> on an economic
development loan board for northern Idaho, an activity that took a bit of time
to do diligently. This board was administered by the well paid staff of an
administrative body (hereinafter AB).</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>If the AB staff had decided in advance that a certain loan should be
granted, but felt that it would not be granted if the application was given
diligent examination by the loan board, the AB staff would not present the loan
package until the meeting (sometimes the package was even then incomplete), and
then the staff would insist that the board must act upon the
application that night. </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Unfortunately for the AB staff, the people first appointed to the loan
board by three sets of county commissioners were not quite such
fools. They always voted to table consideration of an
application until they had timely and complete information (getting
the latter was often a real struggle since the AB staff and/or the
applicant tended to not provide information that might have an adverse
impact on the board's decision). If the AB staff insisted that a
decision must be made the night we first received the loan application package,
we voted the proposal down. As expected, the application was sent up
again, and sometimes again and again until the board felt it had adequate
information and time to consider it and make a diligent decision.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>At first we gently tried to persuade AB staff to provide us with
timely, complete information for all applications. To no avail.
Whenever a risky or inappropriate application was put before us, it was not
timely and/or complete. After this happened several times accompanied by
our polite requests for more timely, complete information, our patience
ended. A stormy session ensued. It was recorded and a partial
transcript was given to the sets of county commissioners. After that,
information became more timely and complete, although we had began to have more
(intentional?) problems with the integrity of the application materials which
caused more delays in processing.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>The AB staff had the last laugh, however. They persuaded
enough commissioners to replace some members of the board with less technical,
less qualified, more acquiescent persons. The result was that more loans
were made, but the failure rate of the projects they were to support, and hence
the repayment failure rate went up substantially, although some favorite
projects of the AB staff were funded (often followed by failure and loan payment
default).</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Perhaps some Moscow citizens would care to speculate on the specific
applicability of 1, 2, and 3 above. </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>I have not directly observed the pace of work of the inside city staff so I
cannot make an informed comment. I have observed the pace of those working
outside. While their snail-like pace is probably mostly the result of
incompetent, inattentive management, I would personally be deeply ashamed to
accept a paycheck for working so slow and/or inefficiently as some do.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>If the mayor, city council, or any citizen doubts the truth of the last two
sentences of the above paragraph here's a suggestion: Pay a visit to the
Les Schwab Tire Center; observe the pace of work there. Then
surreptitiously observe the pace of work of those painting lines and turn arrows
on the city streets, trimming trees, etc. Your city tax dollars at
work.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>W.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>----- Original Message -----
<DIV>From: "Craine Kit" <<A
href="mailto:kcraine@verizon.net">kcraine@verizon.net</A>></DIV>
<DIV>To: "Vision 2020" <<A
href="mailto:vision2020@moscow.com">vision2020@moscow.com</A>></DIV>
<DIV>Sent: Thursday, June 07, 2007 12:09 AM</DIV>
<DIV>Subject: Re: [Vision2020] A Sad Night for Moscow</DIV></DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV>> Excuse me, g.<BR>> <BR>> First, I am not "hansen". If you
want to piss on him, do it in <BR>> response to one of his
posts.<BR>> <BR>> Second, reread my comments. I, as a taxpayer in this
city, expect my <BR>> elected representatives understand what they are
voting on before <BR>> they say yea or nay. I, as a citizen, need to
know what information <BR>> will be used in a decision IF I am going to
make an informed comment. <BR>> Neither I nor the Council can fully
consider the consequences of a <BR>> decision if essential facts are
presented as the Councilors walk into <BR>> a meeting. Staff being
allowed to insert information at the last <BR>> minute is a
question of TIMING, not a target of someone's "pique."<BR>> <BR>> A
decision based on last minute input is NOT necessarily a good one.<BR>>
<BR>> Kit Craine (a female who always provikes a negative response from
g.)<BR>> </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Original Post:</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>I agree with Aaron Ament. The City Council is conducting the people's
<BR>business: making contracts, passing laws, and--most importantly--
<BR>spending our money. Just as a smart person takes time to read and
<BR>understand the fine print in a contract before signing it, I expect
<BR>our representatives to do no less when committing our community and
<BR>our dollars to something.<BR><BR>Furthermore, we--the people--have a right
to participate in our <BR>government. We should be able to review the same
information the <BR>Council will see so we can make informed
comments.<BR><BR>Neither the Council nor the people can do their jobs well
when <BR>pertinent information is not available until just before a
decision <BR>is made. That has nothing to do with the competence of the
staff and <BR>everything to do with timing. When important information
arrives too <BR>late to fit into the packet, perhaps the matter should be
tabled <BR>until the next meeting.<BR><BR>Kit Craine<BR><BR></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><BR>> <BR>> On Jun 6, 2007, at 3:42 PM, g. crabtree wrote:<BR>>
<BR>>> "When important information arrives too<BR>>> late to fit
into the packet, perhaps the matter should be tabled<BR>>> until the next
meeting."<BR>>><BR>>> So why does Ament not simply make that motion?
In what way is the <BR>>> process improved by his treating the staff
and the audience both <BR>>> televised and in attendance to yet
another of his famous fits of <BR>>> pique? I would think that there
will always be the potential for <BR>>> new or updated information
to come in after the meetings agenda has <BR>>> been set and the
packets put together, running down the staff for <BR>>> trying to
make sure he has the most up to date information possible <BR>>> is
unappreciative and crass.<BR>>><BR>>> As an aside for hansen: As a
youth, had I told one of my peers to <BR>>> "shut up" I would have
likely been admonished and sent on my way. <BR>>> Had I thrown a
public hissy fit, spreading my juvenile attitude <BR>>> over people
who were trying to help me, I'd most certainly have <BR>>> been
shown a far harsher discipline.<BR>>><BR>>>
g<BR>>><BR>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Craine Kit" <<A
href="mailto:kcraine@verizon.net">kcraine@verizon.net</A>><BR>>> To:
"Saundra Lund" <<A
href="mailto:sslund@roadrunner.com">sslund@roadrunner.com</A>>; "Vision
2020" <BR>>> <<A
href="mailto:vision2020@moscow.com">vision2020@moscow.com</A>><BR>>>
Cc: "Stout Bob" <<A
href="mailto:bstout@ci.moscow.id.us">bstout@ci.moscow.id.us</A>>; "Ament
Aaron" <BR>>> <<A
href="mailto:aaronament@moscow.com">aaronament@moscow.com</A>>; "Lambert
Bill" <<A
href="mailto:blambert@ci.moscow.id.us">blambert@ci.moscow.id.us</A>>;
<BR>>> "Chaney Nancy" <<A
href="mailto:nchaney@ci.moscow.id.us">nchaney@ci.moscow.id.us</A>>; <<A
href="mailto:sears@moscow.com">sears@moscow.com</A>><BR>>> Sent:
Wednesday, June 06, 2007 10:41 AM<BR>>> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] A Sad
Night for Moscow<BR>>><BR>>><BR>>>> I agree with Aaron
Ament. The City Council is conducting the people's<BR>>>> business:
making contracts, passing laws, and--most importantly-- <BR>>>>
spending our money. Just as a smart person takes time to read
and<BR>>>> understand the fine print in a contract before signing it, I
expect<BR>>>> our representatives to do no less when committing our
community and<BR>>>> our dollars to
something.<BR>>>><BR>>>> Furthermore, we--the people--have a
right to participate in our<BR>>>> government. We should be able to
review the same information the<BR>>>> Council will see so we can make
informed comments.<BR>>>><BR>>>> Neither the Council nor the
people can do their jobs well when<BR>>>> pertinent information is not
available until just before a decision<BR>>>> is made. That has nothing
to do with the competence of the staff and<BR>>>> everything to do with
timing. When important information arrives too<BR>>>> late to fit into
the packet, perhaps the matter should be tabled<BR>>>> until the next
meeting.<BR>>>><BR>>>> Kit
Craine<BR>>>><BR>>>><BR>>>> On Jun 5, 2007, at 4:12
PM, Saundra Lund wrote:<BR>>>><BR>>>>>
Visionaires:<BR>>>>><BR>>>>> No matter how you feel
about the issue that was under discussion, <BR>>>>> I
am<BR>>>>> absolutely appalled at John Weber's behavior during last
night's <BR>>>>> City<BR>>>>> Council
meeting :-( For him to publicly tell another
Council<BR>>>>> member with<BR>>>>> whom he disagrees to
"shut up" is simply beyond the pale. Stupid<BR>>>>>
mistakes<BR>>>>> like that do far more to harm our community than do
honest<BR>>>>>
disagreements.<BR>>>>><BR>>>>> What happened to your
manners, Mr. Weber? Did you not stop to<BR>>>>>
***think***<BR>>>>> about your behavior being televised into homes
in our community?!?<BR>>>>> Even my<BR>>>>> 17-year-old
knows it's incredibly rude and disrespectful to tell<BR>>>>> another
to<BR>>>>> "shut up." She, BTW, was gleefully (I'm sorry
to say) horrified<BR>>>>> reading<BR>>>>> about your
spectacle last night. I had to explain to her I was<BR>>>>>
sure your<BR>>>>> mother *had* raised you better, but people
sometimes make mistakes<BR>>>>> in the<BR>>>>> heat of
the moment or not, as she well knows, and that when you
<BR>>>>> make a<BR>>>>> mistake, you apologize, learn
from the mistake, and carry on.<BR>>>>> "Where's
his<BR>>>>> apology?" was her question. It's mine,
too.<BR>>>>><BR>>>>> We're waiting for an apology, Mr.
Weber -- one is certainly due<BR>>>>> from you
to<BR>>>>> all who witnessed or read about your rude and
disrespectful<BR>>>>> behavior last<BR>>>>>
night.<BR>>>>><BR>>>>><BR>>>>><BR>>>>>
Saundra Lund<BR>>>>> Moscow,
ID<BR>>>>><BR>>>>> The only thing necessary for the
triumph of evil is for good people<BR>>>>> to do<BR>>>>>
nothing.<BR>>>>> - Edmund
Burke<BR>>>>><BR>>>>> Moscow-Pullman Daily
News<BR>>>>><BR>>>>> Big-box changes
nixed<BR>>>>> By Omie Drawhorn, Daily News staff
writer<BR>>>>><BR>>>>> Tuesday, June 5, 2007 - Page
Updated at 12:00:00 AM<BR>>>>><BR>>>>> Tempers flared at
Monday night's Moscow City Council meeting,<BR>>>>> during
which<BR>>>>> the council rejected any amendments to the large
retail <BR>>>>> establishment<BR>>>>>
ordinance.<BR>>>>><BR>>>>> "We already have a dark-store
ordinance in there that is stronger<BR>>>>> than
what<BR>>>>> planning and zoning brought us," Councilman Aaron Ament
said. "I<BR>>>>> want to see<BR>>>>> a cap. A cap would
serve this community well. We have a big-box<BR>>>>>
shopping<BR>>>>> culture that's just about run its course in this
country; we're<BR>>>>> making sure<BR>>>>> they mitigate
for problems they cause the community. Moscow would<BR>>>>> be
crazy<BR>>>>> to drop all the rest and just let them come into the
city on <BR>>>>> their own<BR>>>>>
terms."<BR>>>>><BR>>>>> Ament went on to say he was
frustrated that Moscow city staff<BR>>>>> members
hand<BR>>>>> him important documents just minutes before the start
of a meeting.<BR>>>>><BR>>>>> "I'm so tired of coming to
sit down and have people flip papers for<BR>>>>> me
to<BR>>>>> read," he said. "I seriously read everything put in the
packet, and<BR>>>>> I find<BR>>>>> it insulting for them
to expect me to read it in a couple of <BR>>>>>
minutes."<BR>>>>><BR>>>>> At that point, Councilman John
Weber interrupted Ament.<BR>>>>><BR>>>>> "We have pretty
qualified people over here who do a very good job;<BR>>>>> I
don't<BR>>>>> need you running off on them," he said. "Why don't you
just shut <BR>>>>>
up?"<BR>>>>><BR>>>>> Moscow Mayor Nancy Chaney said
Weber interrupted Ament at "the<BR>>>>>
appropriate<BR>>>>> time."<BR>>>>><BR>>>>>
"I hope we can retrieve a little civility on all sides,"<BR>>>>>
Councilwoman Linda<BR>>>>> Pall
said.<BR>>>>><BR>>>>> The amendments recommended by the
planning and zoning commission<BR>>>>>
included:<BR>>>>><BR>>>>> A large retail establishment
would have to expand by at least 30<BR>>>>>
percent<BR>>>>> before it would be required to apply for a
conditional use permit;<BR>>>>><BR>>>>> Big-box stores
between 40,000 and 65,000 square feet would be<BR>>>>> subject to
the<BR>>>>> design manual - which includes standards for the
exterior and<BR>>>>> interior of<BR>>>>> buildings - at
the discretion of the board of
adjustment;<BR>>>>><BR>>>>> Any business requiring 140
or fewer parking spaces would not be<BR>>>>> subject
to<BR>>>>> the parking requirements of the design
manual;<BR>>>>><BR>>>>> Size be based on gross floor
space as opposed to projected roof <BR>>>>>
area,<BR>>>>> thereby eliminating outdoor storage areas from the
calculated square<BR>>>>>
footage.<BR>>>>><BR>>>>> The planning and zoning
commission also recommended a guideline for<BR>>>>>
stores<BR>>>>> that go dark in Moscow to
follow.<BR>>>>><BR>>>>> The large retail establishment
ordinance, passed in February 2006,<BR>>>>>
requires<BR>>>>> retail stores with more than 40,000 square feet of
gross floor area<BR>>>>> to apply<BR>>>>> for a
conditional use permit.<BR>>>>><BR>>>>> The council
heard public testimony on the proposed amendments May
7.<BR>>>>><BR>>>>> Councilman Bill Lambert said the
conditional use permit process<BR>>>>> already<BR>>>>>
gives the city enough control on which businesses are allowed
to<BR>>>>> locate<BR>>>>> within the
city.<BR>>>>><BR>>>>> "The big-box ordinance as it
stands now is a tough enough ordinance<BR>>>>>
we're<BR>>>>> not going to need (amendments) like this to prevail,"
he said. "The<BR>>>>> dark-store issue can be dealt with at the time
the conditional use<BR>>>>> permit is<BR>>>>>
requested."<BR>>>>><BR>>>>> Weber
agreed.<BR>>>>><BR>>>>> "With the dark store ordinance,
what we have done here is put in <BR>>>>>
some<BR>>>>> verbiage that would make it almost impossible for
anybody from the<BR>>>>> city to<BR>>>>> enforce or get
a handle on," he said. "We've choked it off to the<BR>>>>> point
that<BR>>>>> nobody really wants to come here
anyway."<BR>>>>><BR>>>>> In other business, the council
reversed a board of adjustment<BR>>>>> decision
that<BR>>>>> granted a conditional use permit for a proposed a Dutch
Bros.<BR>>>>> coffee outlet<BR>>>>> with a drive-through
window at 525 S. Jackson St.<BR>>>>><BR>>>>>
QUICKREAD<BR>>>>><BR>>>>> WHAT HAPPENED: The Moscow City
Council rejected amendments to the<BR>>>>> large<BR>>>>>
retail establishment ordinance recommended by the planning and
<BR>>>>> zoning<BR>>>>>
commission.<BR>>>>><BR>>>>> WHAT IT MEANS: The large
retail establishment ordinance will not<BR>>>>> include
a<BR>>>>> size cap. The original dark-store provision remains the
same.<BR>>>>><BR>>>>> WHAT HAPPENS NEXT: The ordinance
will remain as originally written.<BR>>>>><BR>>>>> WHY
YOU SHOULD CARE: The ordinance affects businesses greater
than<BR>>>>> 40,000<BR>>>>> square feet that want to
move into Moscow.<BR>>>>><BR>>>>> Omie Drawhorn can be
reached at (208) 882-5561, ext. 234, or by e-<BR>>>>> mail
at<BR>>>>> <A
href="mailto:odrawhorn@dnews.com">odrawhorn@dnews.com</A>.<BR>>>>><BR>>>>><BR>>>>><BR>>>>><BR>>>>>
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