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<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=navy face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt;color:navy'>" . . . wording plays a big part in
understand[ing] the nature and meaning a verse written two thousand years ago
in a different language, and some Bibles just have it plain wrong."<br>
<br>
- Donovan Arnold (August 23, 2005) <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
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<p class=MsoNormal><b><font size=2 face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Tahoma;font-weight:bold'>From:</span></font></b><font size=2
face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'>
vision2020-bounces@moscow.com [mailto:vision2020-bounces@moscow.com] <b><span
style='font-weight:bold'>On Behalf Of </span></b>Donovan Arnold<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></b> Wednesday, June 06, 2007
9:28 PM<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>To:</span></b> Paul Rumelhart; Vision-2020<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></b> Re: [Vision2020] Christ
is Our Commander-in-Chief</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
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<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>I find it absolutely stunningly idiotic to try and prove one religion
is better than another based on the body count racked up by the claimed faith
of murderers in the past. <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
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<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
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<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>Anyone that slaughters people in the name of Christ or Allah is neither
a Christian or Muslim. <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
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<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
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<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>I think I would fall out of my chair along with many
others if <st1:PersonName w:st="on">Nick Gier</st1:PersonName> gave
Christianity any amount of respect whatsoever. Waiting for him to say
anything unbiased and not bigoted about Christians is like waiting for Jerry
Falwell to condone same-sex marriage. <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
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<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
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<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>Best,<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
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<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
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<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>Donovan<br>
<br>
<b><i><span style='font-weight:bold;font-style:italic'>Paul Rumelhart
<godshatter@yahoo.com></span></i></b> wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<blockquote style='border:none;border-left:solid #1010FF 1.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 4.0pt;
margin-left:3.75pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>I agree that this whole debate about the number killed, tortured, or <br>
inconvenienced by each religion is a waste of time.<br>
<br>
As for your point about posts not following the stated objective of <br>
Vision 2020, you could argue it many ways. Obviously, working on a Plan <br>
to Solve All Our Local Troubles would be more in line with the stated <br>
objective, but good luck with that. We do get a lot of good information <br>
about local events, such as the discussion of the behavior at the last <br>
council meeting. Have you ever heard the phrase "think globally, act <br>
locally"? To do that, you have to be aware of what's going on globally. <br>
We are affected by the price of tea in <st1:country-region w:st="on"><st1:place
w:st="on">China</st1:place></st1:country-region>, if only indirectly. As for <br>
Nick's post, religion is a big issue here in <st1:City w:st="on"><st1:place
w:st="on">Moscow</st1:place></st1:City> and Latah county.<br>
<br>
I do wish that certain posters could let past issues die. I wish we <br>
could confer a little respect even upon people who haven't given it to <br>
us. You have to start somewhere. I'm guessing that you'll find that many <br>
of the lurkers here feel the same way. Unfortunately, we all have our <br>
hot topics, and our buttons just sitting out there waiting to be pushed. <br>
I'm sure I'm not the only one that finds himself going over the same <br>
ground again and again, having my opinions fall into a well-worn rut too <br>
much of the time. That's why we need more participation here. So, with <br>
that in mind, welcome to the group.<br>
<br>
I'd also recommend just ignoring certain topics. It's not like we're all <br>
in a room shouting at each other. You can have thousands of <br>
conversations going on at the same time in this type of forum.<br>
<br>
Paul<br>
<br>
Latah Lounger wrote:<br>
> Why is it relevant with regard to HOW MANY individuals were killed by <br>
> such-and-such people of a certain faith. Isn't it the simple act of <br>
> killing and the reason behind the killing that is of importance? <br>
> Keeping scorecards of "number killed" by "faith/belief
structure" <br>
> seems a bit sophomoric if the ultimate issue is to address the REASON <br>
> behind the killing. Is one faith more evil or despicable because it <br>
> killed 2,000 more than another for the exact same reason?<br>
><br>
> Furthermore, what does Gier's post really have to do with the stated <br>
> objective of Vision 2020: "Moscow Vision 2020 is an informal, <br>
> multi-partisan group of <st1:City w:st="on">Moscow</st1:City> residents
formed in 1993 to encourage <br>
> more public information and debate about the future of <st1:City w:st="on">Moscow</st1:City>
and <br>
> <st1:place w:st="on"><st1:PlaceName w:st="on">Latah</st1:PlaceName> <st1:PlaceType
w:st="on">County</st1:PlaceType></st1:place>." I fail to comprehend where
Gier's post, as well as many <br>
> other posted here, has any connection with <st1:City w:st="on">Moscow</st1:City>
or <st1:place w:st="on"><st1:PlaceName w:st="on">Latah</st1:PlaceName> <st1:PlaceType
w:st="on">County</st1:PlaceType></st1:place>. It <br>
> appears that several posters use the board as a soapbox to spout off <br>
> their own partisan or religious beliefs, or, in this case, to develop <br>
> a thesis, without connecting how their post relates to <st1:City w:st="on">Moscow</st1:City>'s
or <br>
> <st1:place w:st="on"><st1:PlaceName w:st="on">Latah</st1:PlaceName> <st1:PlaceType
w:st="on">County</st1:PlaceType></st1:place>'s future.<br>
><br>
> */nickgier@adelphia.net/* wrote:<br>
><br>
> Good Morning:<br>
><br>
> I would like to thank Gary Crabtree for the inspiration for this<br>
> week's KRFP radio commentary.<br>
><br>
> <st1:PersonName w:st="on">Nick Gier</st1:PersonName><br>
><br>
> CHRIST IS OUR COMMANDER-IN-CHIEF:<br>
> RELATIVE VIOLENCE IN ISLAM AND CHRISTIANITY<br>
><br>
> I'm writing a book on the origins of religious violence and my<br>
> thesis is that there has been far more religiously motivated<br>
> violence in the Abrahamic religions—Judaism, Christianity,
and<br>
> Islam—than the Asian religions. Draft chapters can be viewed
at<br>
> www.class.uidaho.edu/ngier/orv.htm.<br>
><br>
> A person on our local list-serve Vision2020 had this to say about<br>
> relative violence in Islam and Christianity:<br>
><br>
> "Up to the eleventh century Islam had a sizable lead. From 1095 to<br>
> 1291 the Church picked up the pace and nosed ahead. It was neck<br>
> and neck till 1834 and the end of the Spanish Inquisition. After<br>
> that Allah's chosen made it no contest."<br>
><br>
> There are more than a few problems with this summary history.<br>
><br>
> Islam could not possibly have had any sort of lead before the 11th<br>
> Century because Christianity had a very good head start. Under<br>
> Theodosius I, being a pagan was a capital crime, and even<br>
> Christians were arrested if they practiced even the most minor of<br>
> pagan practices.<br>
><br>
> On December 25, 390, Theodosius ordered the slaughter of 7,000<br>
> pagans in Thessalonica. The British historian Hugh Trevor Roper<br>
> called Theodosius "the first Spanish Inquisitor," and "the<br>
> Christian monarch who introduced the world to religious<br>
> totalitarianism."<br>
><br>
> Bishop Ambrose, who baptized <st1:City w:st="on"><st1:place w:st="on">St.
Augustine</st1:place></st1:City>, made Theodosius do<br>
> penance for the atrocities at Thessalonica, but he still<br>
> proclaimed that "Christ was now at the head of the [Roman]
legions."<br>
><br>
> This reminds me of the sign outside a fundamentalist church in<br>
> <st1:City w:st="on">L.A.</st1:City>, right after the invasion of <st1:country-region
w:st="on"><st1:place w:st="on">Iraq</st1:place></st1:country-region>:
"Christ is our<br>
> Commander-in-Chief." I'm assuming that our born-again president<br>
> would have to agree with this demotion.<br>
><br>
> Under Muslim rule Jews and Christians were generally asked to<br>
> offer a special tax, not their heads. The slaughter of 4,000 Jews<br>
> in Muslim Granada in 1066 was the exception rather than the rule,<br>
> and Jews generally had much better lives in Muslim Spain than<br>
> anywhere else in Christian Europe.<br>
><br>
> In 1099, men, women, and children were slaughtered<br>
> indiscriminately when Christian forces captured <st1:City w:st="on"><st1:place
w:st="on">Jerusalem</st1:place></st1:City>. An<br>
> eyewitness reported that the Crusaders "rode in blood up to their<br>
> knees and bridle reins. Indeed, it was a just and splendid<br>
> judgment of God that this place should be filled with the blood of<br>
> the unbelievers, since it had suffered so long from their<br>
> blasphemies."<br>
><br>
> When Saladin retook the city in 1187, Christians were only<br>
> required to pay a ransom and then free to return home. Some of<br>
> Saladin's officers paid for those who could not afford it, and<br>
> about 7,000 others were sold into slavery.<br>
><br>
> In Muslim India Buddhist and Hindus were, incredibly enough,<br>
> declared "People of the Book," and the tax on non-Muslims was
only<br>
> sporadically enforced and even more infrequently collected.<br>
><br>
> Most of the ancestors of Muslims in <st1:country-region w:st="on">Pakistan</st1:country-region>,
<st1:country-region w:st="on"><st1:place w:st="on">Bangladesh</st1:place></st1:country-region><br>
> (especially here), <st1:country-region w:st="on">India</st1:country-region>,
<st1:country-region w:st="on">Indonesia</st1:country-region>, and <st1:country-region
w:st="on"><st1:place w:st="on">Malaysia</st1:place></st1:country-region> freely
converted<br>
> to Islam. Areas in <st1:country-region w:st="on"><st1:place w:st="on">India</st1:place></st1:country-region>
where forced conversions were attempted<br>
> are now the places where one finds the fewest Muslims per capita.<br>
><br>
> Some Mughal emperors ordered the destruction of Hindu and Buddhist<br>
> temples, but local resistance and intimidated Mughal functionaries<br>
> meant that relatively few temples were liquidated. Early Christian<br>
> emperors were much more successful in destroying pagan temples,<br>
> including the one in <st1:City w:st="on"><st1:place w:st="on">Alexandria</st1:place></st1:City>
that housed the finest library in<br>
> the ancient world.<br>
><br>
> Curiously, the Vision2020 post above ended Christian atrocities in<br>
> 1834, but during the Taiping Rebellion, Chinese Christian armies<br>
> were responsible for killing 10-20 million people between<br>
> 1852-1864. I would hazard a guess that more Daoist, Buddhist, and<br>
> Confucian temples were destroyed by the Taipings in 12 years than<br>
> 600 years of Muslim rule in <st1:country-region w:st="on"><st1:place
w:st="on">India</st1:place></st1:country-region>.<br>
><br>
> Some have claimed that the Taipings were not really Christians,<br>
> but that is simply not the case. They took great pains to<br>
> eliminate Chinese religious influences; they enforced the 10<br>
> Commandments at the point of a sword; and they followed the Bible<br>
> very carefully, including the prophecies in the Book of Revelation.<br>
><br>
> Short of Osama bin Laden getting several nukes and using them,<br>
> militant Muslims have a long way to go to match the historical<br>
> Christian kill rate.<br>
><br>
> <st1:PersonName w:st="on">Nick Gier</st1:PersonName> taught religion and
philosophy at the University of<br>
> <st1:State w:st="on"><st1:place w:st="on">Idaho</st1:place></st1:State>
for 31 years. See his columns as the Palouse Pundit at<br>
> www.NickGier.com.<br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
> =======================================================<br>
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> mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com<br>
> =======================================================<br>
><br>
><br>
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</blockquote>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
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