<DIV>Keely,</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Thanks for the dialog. I don't agree we were rehashing the same arguments. But we at least agree on two important points;</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>That Christ won our forgiveness and that <EM>Wet Dog Hair and Greek Spice</EM> would not make the best scent for a room freshener. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Best,</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Donovan<BR><BR><B><I>keely emerinemix <kjajmix1@msn.com></I></B> wrote:</DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE class=replbq style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #1010ff 2px solid"> <STYLE> P { margin:0px; padding:0px } body { FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY:Tahoma } </STYLE> Thanks, Donovan. No need for us to rehash the same points over and over again, but I did want to clarify my "trying to make restitution" comment just by saying that of course I believe that my forgiveness from all sins is won by Christ, not by my subsequent good works, but a
fruit of my repentance would be to try to make up for the damage I had caused.<BR><BR>And I agree -- a Greek-spiced house is good, but my husband had just washed the dog and so wet Springer-mix added just a bit too much pungency, and it's easier to fit the dishes in the dishwasher than the dog . . .<BR><BR>keely<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Date: Sun, 3 Jun 2007 22:13:40 -0700<BR>From: donovanjarnold2005@yahoo.com<BR>Subject: Re: [Vision2020] "Illegals" OK only if they fight in Iraq<BR>To: kjajmix1@msn.com; ngier@uidaho.edu; ophite@gmail.com<BR>CC: vision2020@moscow.com<BR><BR> <DIV> <DIV><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Keely,</SPAN></DIV> <DIV><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"></SPAN> </DIV> <DIV><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">If my house smelt of Greek spices I would not be trying to rid the smell. : )</SPAN></DIV> <DIV><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"></SPAN> </DIV> <DIV><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">You wrote:</SPAN></DIV> <DIV><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"></SPAN> </DIV> <DIV><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">"While I have no doubt at all about their innate kindness and sincerity, I believe they are being naive and are perhaps foolishly suggesting to border crossers that it's less dangerous to wander across the desert than it really is."</SPAN></DIV> <DIV><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"></SPAN> </DIV> <DIV><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">I feel the same way towards those that feel the same way as you. I think by allowing the illegal immigrants to enter the country while keeping the ones following the law from entering we send a dangerous and conflicting message that people should risk their life to enter the country illegally rather than the legal way.</SPAN></DIV> <DIV><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY:
Arial"></SPAN> </DIV> <DIV><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">You also wrote:</SPAN></DIV> <DIV><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"></SPAN> </DIV> <DIV><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">"It would be great, I suppose, if no one else ever crossed over illegally. But I am calling for the legalization of those who have and yet who meet certain criteria, including steady employment, proof of residence here, and an absence of criminal record."</SPAN></DIV> <DIV><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"></SPAN> </DIV> <DIV><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Giving amnesty to all who risk their life to come here would only encourage more to come illegally, would it not? And if they faked citizenship, how hard would it be to fake residency, a job, and a criminal record? How would we check on all that information anyway? And finally, do they
have to have a legal job that is paying at least minimum wage? Or is it OK to have an illegal job? How do you prove you have an illegal job? They don't give out W2s. Do you think we should let those illegal companies continue to pay illegal wages too, or should we shut them down, but then, the illegals would not have a job and would not be able to be citizens? Confusing isn't it? Another catch 22. </SPAN></DIV> <DIV><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"></SPAN> </DIV> <DIV><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">In your next point you state;</SPAN></DIV> <DIV><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"></SPAN> </DIV> <DIV><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">"The 'absence of a criminal record' part is not an oxymoron. Yes, they crossed illegally, but that isn't the same as having a criminal record. Having a record means there has been adjudication on a specific violation of law, and
most people don't get caught crossing."</SPAN></DIV> <DIV><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"></SPAN> </DIV> <DIV><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">So you are saying you are just fine with criminals being given citizenship just as long as they were the lucky and/or smart ones that got away with the crime? </SPAN></DIV> <DIV><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"></SPAN> </DIV> <DIV><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"> "Also, I don't consider the illegality of undocumented border crossing in the hope of supporting one's family to be a sin"</SPAN></DIV> <DIV><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"></SPAN> </DIV> <DIV><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">I am certainly no Bible expert, but I do believe that stealing and bearing false witness are in violation of the Ten Commandments and thus sins. Can I evade taxes and lie to the government
about my identity in hopes of better supporting my family too?</SPAN></DIV> <DIV><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"></SPAN> </DIV> <DIV><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">"By the way, I tried later to make restitution, but the business had closed down, so I instead tried to make up for my wrong in other ways)."</SPAN></DIV> <DIV><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"></SPAN> </DIV> <DIV><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Humm, I didn't know, a Christian could make up for past sins through works. I always believed that sins could only be absolved through the acceptance of Christ. I thought that was the whole reason he went with the hanging on the cross and suffering. Mind you, I am not opposed to good works, but I think we should do them because it is the right thing to do, not being we are riddled with guilt or think we can cupcake and sunshine ourselves through the pearly gates. It is a good thing too
though, because the world would long tire of eating cupcakes before I ever earned my golden ticket. : )</SPAN></DIV> <DIV><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"></SPAN> </DIV> <DIV><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">"I believe that the more Christian approach to the problem of undocumented workers is to do whatever we can to empower them to become self-reliant, contributing, proud members of our society, ministering to their real needs and giving hearts and dollars toward their eventual success."</SPAN></DIV> <DIV><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"></SPAN> </DIV> <DIV><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">I believe that too, but with two exceptions. One that they are already self-reliant, and second, they be contributing, proud members of their own society, not ours. If there is a problem in Mexico that causes them all to come running into United States, maybe we should fix the
problem there rather than letting it run over here. </SPAN></DIV> <DIV><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"> I am sure that you care Keely. However, I think your approach to solving the problem doesn't solve the problem, it only exacerbates it. The problem is the corruption and abuse going on in Mexico. Allowing the most able workers to flee their problems rather than staying and fixing the country, and saving their own culture from corruption and fraud is not the correct direction. If giving amnesty to millions of illegal immigrants, not enforcing the laws, and assisting illegals in getting government handouts solved the illegal immigration and their problems we would have wiped the problem out in the 1980s. </SPAN></DIV> <DIV><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"></SPAN> </DIV> <DIV><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">“The <B>definition of insanity</B> is doing the same thing over and over again and
expecting different results”-- Albert Einstein. </SPAN></DIV> <DIV><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"></SPAN> </DIV> <DIV><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Best,</SPAN></DIV> <DIV><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"></SPAN> </DIV> <DIV><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Donovan</SPAN></DIV></DIV> <DIV><BR><BR><B><I>keely emerinemix <kjajmix1@msn.com></I></B> wrote:</DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE class=EC_replbq style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: rgb(16,16,255) 2px solid">Thank you, Donovan, for the tone of your comments. As I'm trying to clean up after dinner and my son's birthday celebration, I'll respond briefly.<BR><BR>1. I didn't encourage people to come here illegally, and, in fact, disagree with the premise behind those who would, for example, stock water towers in the Sonoran Desert with water and supplies, believing that it helps those who do cross. While I
have no doubt at all about their innate kindness and sincerity, I believe they are being naive and are perhaps foolishly suggesting to border crossers that it's less dangerous to wander across the desert than it really is. I worked with a couple of hundred undocumented workers in my ministerial career, but that was when they were already here, and while I am a pretty good teacher of English and a fairly nice person to boot, I don't think my reputation alone is enough to lure someone across Third Street, much less the Mexican/U.S. border.<BR><BR>2. It would be great, I suppose, if no one else ever crossed over illegally. But I am calling for the legalization of those who have and yet who meet certain criteria, including steady employment, proof of residence here, and an absence of criminal record. To me, "amnesty" is another word for "acknowledging the obvious and deciding how best for all to benefit from it."<BR><BR>3. The "absence of a
criminal record" part is not an oxymoron. Yes, they crossed illegally, but that isn't the same as having a criminal record. Having a record means there has been adjudication on a specific violation of law, and most people don't get caught crossing. I'm talking about the ones who, say, are arrested, tried, and found guilty of a felony or gross misdemeanor. For example, during a particularly stupid period of my time in college, I committed a crime -- I threw a bucket of paint on a business that I believed caused harm to women. I wasn't caught, though, and lacked the moral fibre to turn myself in. Therefore, while I did something illegal -- tossed paint -- I do not have a criminal record. Also, I don't consider the illegality of undocumented border crossing in the hope of supporting one's family to be a sin, nor do I consider it to be a crime IN AND OF ITSELF to be even as serious as vandalism. (By the way, I tried
later to make restitution, but the business had closed down, so I instead tried to make up for my wrong in other ways).<BR><BR>4. I believe that the more Christian approach to the problem of undocumented workers is to do whatever we can to empower them to become self-reliant, contributing, proud members of our society, ministering to their real needs and giving hearts and dollars toward their eventual success. The basis of my ministry was SERA', which in Spanish means "what will be" and is an acronym for Service, Empowerment, Relationship and Advocacy. That's why I taught English and did the more typically "religious" stuff while also helping people with schools, apartments, predatory bosses, etc. -- I knew I was called to serve them and also to fight for them, something I wish the church would pay a little more attention to. And so to me that means acknowledging their human, economic, and cultural worth and enfranchising them through legal
residency with the hope of citizenship. Even lacking neighborly concern for these people, there is cultural and economic benefit to having them here. I know many people not here legally who have bought houses, worked hard, paid taxes, raised wonderful families, become part of a church, volunteered in their communities, and given themselves to their neighbors in warmth and openness. The overwhelming majority of people I worked among were people I was proud to call "neighbors" -- thus the name of my ministry, "Vecinos." In Spanish, it means neighbors; in my life, it was the perfect word to acknowledge what I had in common with them.<BR><BR>Enough for now -- it's time to rid my house of the smell of Greek spices from my gyros-loving 14-year-old!<BR><BR>keely<BR><BR><BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Date: Sun, 3 Jun 2007 14:51:59 -0700<BR>From: donovanjarnold2005@yahoo.com<BR>Subject: Re: [Vision2020] "Illegals" OK only if they fight in Iraq<BR>To:
kjajmix1@msn.com; ngier@uidaho.edu; ophite@gmail.com<BR>CC: vision2020@moscow.com<BR><BR> <DIV>Keely,</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>You think it is humane and Christian to encourage others to run across the boarder illegally risking their life because they can get naturalized faster than some who does it legally and safely? I think this running across the boarder, getting raped, killed, mugged, and treated like a slave when they get here is the WORST thing we could possibly endorse as a Christians or Americans. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Second, you state; </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>"Legalize 'em, I say -- if they've got no criminal record, are gainfully employed, and pay a processing fee/penalty."</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Isn't this an oxymoron, or catch 22? If they came here illegally, illegally crossed the boarder, illegally obtained a job, illegally forged documents, illegally lied to government officials, and illegally avoided paying taxes,
aren't we then allowing criminals into the country over the ones that did it legally?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I believe that there has to be a better way of balancing the needs and ethical treatment of those wanting to come to this country, the economic needs of the country, and the concerns raised by others allowing so many people regarding the illegal flooding of immigrants into this country and over-tapping of its resources.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>This nation is a great place to live because we have more resources per person. If we allow people to flood this nation at a rate faster than it can accommodate and adapt to the increase our quality of life drastically declines and this great land of ours ceases to be what makes it so wonderful in the first place. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I don't want an expanding class of slaves in this country, which is what this government is allowing to happen. It is just horrible to treat people like this.
It destroys are cities, our way of life, and our humanity. It would be wonderful to be able to let every poor down trotted soul into this country, but we cannot. And to allow desperate people to come into this country only to be abused, used as slaves, and to drag down the wages of our already existing poor is the wrong direction for this country to be going in. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>"it is indisputable that most of us benefit, from the dinner table to the pension table, from their work."</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>That is disputed. Real-wages have declined. Poor legal citizens in this country also suffer because of an ever expanding large slave labor force. The people that are profiting are the upper classes that own the means of production, not the workers. The GDP has increased as a result of more slave labor. However, real wages and actual wealth for the majority of US citizens declines as illegals have increased in
number. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Best,</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Donovan</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><BR><BR><B><I>keely emerinemix <kjajmix1@msn.com></I></B> wrote:</DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE class=EC_EC_replbq style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: rgb(16,16,255) 2px solid">The H2B program is a good start, but, as Nick says, has a quota that makes it a virtually guaranteed failure. And while I would question that "only 10 percent" of undocumented Mexican workers send a child to public school, it is indisputable that most of us benefit, from the dinner table to the pension table, from their work.<BR> <BR>Legalize 'em, I say -- if they've got no criminal record, are gainfully employed, and pay a processing fee/penalty. Yes, it's a very personal issue for me, but I feel able to argue it from a humanitarian and an economic perspective.<BR> <BR>keely<BR><BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Date: Sun, 3 Jun 2007
07:09:40 -0800<BR>From: ngier@uidaho.edu<BR>To: ophite@gmail.com<BR>CC: vision2020@moscow.com<BR>Subject: Re: [Vision2020] "Illegals" OK only if they fight in Iraq<BR><BR><BR><FONT size=5>Good Morning:<BR><BR>Larry Kudlow, writing for the conservative journal <I>National Review</I> (4/4/06), goes beyond the requests of the current legislation. He urges Congress to expand the ridiculously low unskilled H-2B quota from 140,000 to the millions of visas that are needed for our service and agricultural economy. <BR><BR>Kudlow also reminds Americans that "illegals have [paid] $7 billion to Social Security and $1.5 billion to Medicare. They are contributing to our wealth, not reducing it." He also adds that "only 10 percent of illegal Mexicans have sent a child to an American public school and just 5 percent have received food stamps or unemployment benefits."<BR><BR>Nick Gier<BR></FONT></BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <HR> Live Earth is coming. Learn more about the
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