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Thank God for a country of laws that recognize basic human decency vs. evil even when or if "church" leaders don't. If it were left up to many "Christian" churches in the south, and without the much-too-little-too-late actions of Congress, we'd still have segregated drinking fountains.<br><br>Although perhaps that kind of intermingling leads, in Ms. Kraut's mind, to the "problems" she referred to earlier. Beliefs like that, however, indicate a thirst for something much more profound than that which is offered by drinking fountains.<br><br>keely<br><br><br>> From: privatejf32@hotmail.com<br>> To: vision2020@moscow.com<br>> Date: Mon, 4 Jun 2007 07:22:55 -0700<br>> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Jeb Bush Featured in Gay Marriage Ads<br>> <br>> So if a "church" leader takes the view that the "church" ok's child <br>> molestation, the State has no right to force the "church" to stop?!<br>> <br>> Does Dougie know about this? For that matter, does the REAL Pope? Would <br>> have saved them MILLIONS had they taken on that view point, Pat.<br>> <br>> J :]<br>> <br>> <br>> <br>> <br>> <br>> >From: "Saundra Lund" <sslund@roadrunner.com><br>> >To: "'Pat Kraut'" <pkraut@moscow.com>, "'vision2020'" <br>> ><vision2020@moscow.com><br>> >Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Jeb Bush Featured in Gay Marriage Ads<br>> >Date: Mon, 4 Jun 2007 00:44:02 -0700<br>> ><br>> >Hi Pat,<br>> ><br>> >So, the reverse would hold true as well, correct? "The church" (and please<br>> >clarify what you mean by "the church") has no right to try to force the<br>> >State to do something it is against, right? If "the church" wants to do<br>> >something, it should go for it, but the State should not be forced into<br>> >anything by "the church", right?<br>> ><br>> >And, we can count on you to stand up and speak out against "the church"<br>> >trying to force the state into things, right?<br>> ><br>> >Of course, I don't agree with your premise for ***obvious*** reasons, but<br>> >I'm just wanting to make sure you're consistent, at least :-)<br>> ><br>> ><br>> >Saundra Lund<br>> >Moscow, ID<br>> ><br>> >The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good people to do<br>> >nothing.<br>> >- Edmund Burke<br>> ><br>> >***** Original material contained herein is Copyright 2007 through life <br>> >plus<br>> >70 years, Saundra Lund. Do not copy, forward, excerpt, or reproduce <br>> >outside<br>> >the Vision 2020 forum without the express written permission of the<br>> >author.*****<br>> ><br>> >-----Original Message-----<br>> >From: vision2020-bounces@moscow.com [mailto:vision2020-bounces@moscow.com]<br>> >On Behalf Of Pat Kraut<br>> >Sent: Sunday, June 03, 2007 9:18 PM<br>> >To: vision2020<br>> >Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Jeb Bush Featured in Gay Marriage Ads<br>> ><br>> >The state has no right to force the church to do something it is against. <br>> >If<br>> >the state wants to do it...go for it...but the church should not be forced<br>> >into anything.<br>> ><br>> ><br>> ><br>> >----- Original Message -----<br>> >From: "Paul Rumelhart" <godshatter@yahoo.com><br>> >To: <vision2020@moscow.com><br>> >Sent: Sunday, June 03, 2007 4:41 PM<br>> >Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Jeb Bush Featured in Gay Marriage Ads<br>> ><br>> ><br>> >Why is it not a state issue? Why not open it up so that any two<br>> >consenting adults can marry each other and gain the benefits that<br>> >heterosexual couples currently enjoy? The individual churches can still<br>> >refuse to marry any two people based upon whatever criteria they care to<br>> >name. There are plenty of religions that don't have a problem with it.<br>> >So why should they be restricted in what they can do simply because some<br>> >other groups does have a problem with it? This is why the separation of<br>> >church and state is a good thing. It provides a framework that people<br>> >of all different creeds can use as they see fit.<br>> ><br>> >I really wish church leaders would govern their own flocks, and stop<br>> >trying to control all the other faiths.<br>> ><br>> >Paul<br>> ><br>> >pkraut@moscow.com wrote:<br>> > > You are trying to argue with the state and this is a church issue. The<br>> > > church does not want to marry homosexuals because the bible talks about <br>> >it<br>> > > being an no-no. The church also questioned marrying outside of their<br>> > > religion and race because the bible suggests it is not a good thing. By<br>> > > taking the issue to the church you would actually have to discuss this<br>> > > problem with some reality which of course is why it is presented to the<br>> > > state. If the church decided to marry outside of race you need to seek <br>> >the<br>> > > answer from churches. There are churches that are willing to marry<br>> > > homosexuals also...with some of the same problems that happened when <br>> >some<br>> > > chose to marry outside of race.<br>> > ><br>> > ><br>> > ><br>> > ><br>> > ><br>> > ><br>> > >> >From today's (June 3, 2007) Spokesman Review -<br>> > >><br>> > >> ---------------------------------------------------------<br>> > >><br>> > >> Jeb Bush featured in gay marriage ads<br>> > >> Lesley Clark<br>> > >> McClatchy<br>> > >> June 3, 2007<br>> > >><br>> > >> WASHINGTON - Former Florida Gov. Jeb Bush, the poster child for gay<br>> > >> marriage?<br>> > >><br>> > >> A coalition of civil rights groups that back gay marriage is using<br>> > >><br>> > > photos of<br>> > ><br>> > >> prominent couples like the former Republican governor and his Mexican-<br>> > >><br>> > > born<br>> > ><br>> > >> wife, Columba, in an advertising campaign marking the 40th anniversary <br>> >of<br>> > >> Loving v. Virginia, a U.S. Supreme Court decision that gave interracial<br>> > >> couples the right to marry.<br>> > >><br>> > >> The groups say they hope to use the couples and the court case to <br>> >bolster<br>> > >> their contention that marriage is a civil right that should know no<br>> > >><br>> > > bounds -<br>> > ><br>> > >> even for those of the same sex.<br>> > >><br>> > >> "We're honoring and celebrating something that just over 40 years ago<br>> > >><br>> > > some<br>> > ><br>> > >> Americans said was immoral and wrong and could not happen," said Jimmy<br>> > >> Creech, the executive director of Faith in America, a gay rights <br>> >advocacy<br>> > >> group that is bankrolling the ad campaign. "We're celebrating the <br>> >wisdom<br>> > >> that prejudice and bigotry was removed from the law books and Americans<br>> > >><br>> > > were<br>> > ><br>> > >> given the right to marry the person they loved, regardless of race."<br>> > >><br>> > >> The "Freedom to Marry" advertising campaign - to be launched Monday -<br>> > >> consists of six ads that will run in two Capitol Hill publications, <br>> >Roll<br>> > >> Call and Politico. They feature photos of interracial couples like <br>> >golfer<br>> > >> Tiger Woods and his wife, Elin, and former U.S. Defense Secretary Bill<br>> > >><br>> > > Cohen<br>> > ><br>> > >> and his wife, Janet Langhart, who have authored a book about their<br>> > >><br>> > > marriage,<br>> > ><br>> > >> "Love in Black and White." Couples married to someone of a different<br>> > >> ethnicity, like the Bushes, are also featured.<br>> > >><br>> > >> The ads note that 16 states still banned interracial marriages until <br>> >the<br>> > >> Supreme Court struck down a Virginia law in 1967, finding "the freedom <br>> >to<br>> > >> marry has long been recognized as one of the vital personal rights<br>> > >><br>> > > essential<br>> > ><br>> > >> to the orderly pursuit of happiness by free men."<br>> > >><br>> > >> "Jeb and Columba Bush couldn't marry today if discrimination were still<br>> > >><br>> > > the<br>> > ><br>> > >> law of the land," the ad that features the former Florida first couple<br>> > >> reads.<br>> > >><br>> > >> Bush didn't respond to a request for comment. But John Stemberger, an<br>> > >> Orlando attorney who is spearheading a petition drive to put a gay<br>> > >><br>> > > marriage<br>> > ><br>> > >> ban up for a vote in Florida in 2008, called the ads "a little bit<br>> > >><br>> > > silly."<br>> > ><br>> > >> ---------------------------------------------------------<br>> > >><br>> > >> Seeya round town, Moscow.<br>> > >><br>> > >> Tom Hansen<br>> > >> Moscow, Idaho<br>> > >><br>> > >> "Gays and lesbians stood up for civil rights in Montgomery, Selma, in<br>> > >> Albany, Georgia and St. Augustine, Florida, and many other campaigns of<br>> > >><br>> > > the<br>> > ><br>> > >> Civil Rights Movement. Many of these courageous men and women were<br>> > >><br>> > > fighting<br>> > ><br>> > >> for my freedom at a time when they could find few voices for their own,<br>> > >><br>> > > and<br>> > ><br>> > >> I salute their contributions."<br>> > >><br>> > >> - Coretta Scott King (March 30, 1998)<br>> > >><br>> > >><br>> > >> =======================================================<br>> > >> List services made available by First Step Internet,<br>> > >> serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.<br>> > >> http://www.fsr.net<br>> > >> mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com<br>> > >> =======================================================<br>> > >><br>> > >><br>> > ><br>> > ><br>> > ><br>> > ><br>> > > ---------------------------------------------<br>> > > This message was sent by First Step Internet.<br>> > > http://www.fsr.com/<br>> > ><br>> > ><br>> > > =======================================================<br>> > > List services made available by First Step Internet,<br>> > > serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.<br>> > > http://www.fsr.net<br>> > > mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com<br>> > > =======================================================<br>> > ><br>> > ><br>> ><br>> >=======================================================<br>> > List services made available by First Step Internet,<br>> > serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.<br>> > http://www.fsr.net<br>> > mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com<br>> >=======================================================<br>> ><br>> ><br>> ><br>> >--<br>> >No virus found in this incoming message.<br>> >Checked by AVG Free Edition.<br>> >Version: 7.5.472 / Virus Database: 269.8.7/830 - Release Date: 6/3/07 12:47<br>> >PM<br>> ><br>> >=======================================================<br>> > List services made available by First Step Internet,<br>> > serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.<br>> > http://www.fsr.net<br>> > mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com<br>> >=======================================================<br>> ><br>> ><br>> ><br>> >=======================================================<br>> > List services made available by First Step Internet,<br>> > serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.<br>> > http://www.fsr.net<br>> > mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com<br>> >=======================================================<br>> <br>> _________________________________________________________________<br>> Make every IM count. 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