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<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Masterful! Now could you please apply the same
treatment and take Wilson to task for the tragedy
in Oklahoma City, (doubtless McVeigh was a CC disciple) the world trade
center murders (surely the terrorists were reading Credenda Agenda prior to
their murderous deed) and hurricane Katrina (?) By the standard you set up
in your post to Mr. Schwaller there is no evil in the world that can't be laid
at Wilson's feet. It must be comforting to have such a universal antagonist to
point to as the source for all misdeeds. My only question would have to be
what is your explanation for all the other pedophiles who prey on children who
haven't a clue who Douglas Wilson is? Who is their inspiration?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>g</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>----- Original Message ----- </FONT></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>From: "Bob Herodotus" <</FONT><A
href="mailto:bherodotus@yahoo.com"><FONT face=Arial
size=2>bherodotus@yahoo.com</FONT></A><FONT face=Arial size=2>></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>To: <</FONT><A
href="mailto:vision2020@moscow.com"><FONT face=Arial
size=2>vision2020@moscow.com</FONT></A><FONT face=Arial size=2>></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Sent: Wednesday, May 16, 2007 6:49 AM</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Subject: [Vision2020] Schwaller the
Reductio</FONT></DIV></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial><BR><FONT size=2></FONT></FONT></DIV><FONT face=Arial
size=2>Schwaller whiffs again, this time minimizing the impact of Wilson's
influence on his devotees when he wrote,<BR><BR>"For your example to hold up, Mr
Sitler . . . would need to have seen Doug Wilson .
. . in the act of molesting children, then justify his actions by
saying "Well Doug did it, it must be OK for me to do it." Since this was
not the case, Doug Wilson cannot be held accountable for Mr Sitler's actions, in
the sight of man, of law, or of God."<BR><BR>Of course, this is absurd because
it ignores the overwhelming testimony of Scripture, which clearly holds teachers
to a higher standard, "for in many things [they] offend all" (James 3:1,
ff). And the "many" includes the all the little things that encompass a
man's doctrine and that illustrate his sermons on a daily basis. Consider
these examples of the influence of Wilson's doctrine on Steven
Sitler:<BR><BR>Pedophiles rely on manipulative deceit to capture and silence
their victims, and Steven Sitler sat under the master of manipulation — Douglas
Wilson — when he preyed in Moscow. Rest assured that by reading Wilson's
blog and observing his interaction with the public, Sitler learned cunning
beyond measure. Yes, indeed, he watched his pastor twist other's words
into meaning something that no one intended, in order to manipulate them into
giving him what he wanted (do kirkers really believe the stories that Wilson
peddles about Duck? He fabricated every one of them while he applied enormous
economic and emotional pressure on the Schulers, hoping they'd cave).
Sitler learned from Wilson how to create opportunities by misrepresentation and
then pounce on weakness the moment he saw it. And not ironically, Sitler
arrived in Moscow in fall 2003, just in time to witness Wilson and Jones
deceitfully manipulate the thesis of "Southern Slavery As It Was" into a book
about<BR> non-violent emancipation. He saw Wilson dismiss the capital
crime of manstealing and manipulate its proceeds — slavery — into a "life of
plenty." Wilson taught him how to manipulate words so that oppressive
slaveholders became "noble Christians" and stolen labor became a lifestyle of
"mutual affection." Yes, know for sure that Wilson taught Sitler the
deceitful art of manipulation.<BR><BR>Pedophiles are typically narcissists and
Sitler sat under the poster child of narcissism — Douglas Wilson — during his
stay in Moscow. Indeed, his parents educated him on the Wilson classical
model, praising all things Wilson, with the hope they could send him to New
Saint Andrews College where he could fawn over every word that fell from the
master's lips. And as saw the master encourage the worshiping multitudes
to adore him, know for sure that he learned self-love exceeds self-denial as the
preeminent Christian virtue. <BR><BR>Pedophiles act in contempt of all law
— God's and man's — in order to obtain their desires, and Sitler's 18 months in
Moscow forever embedded the principle in his mind that if the law stands in your
way, break it. Steven Sitler was an eyewitness to Douglas Wilson's public
defiance of state property tax law as well as the City Zoning Code, and he
learned firsthand that Christian dominion Wilson-style provides for self-willed
antinomianism, if necessary. Wilson taught Sitler that the law does not
represent a gift from God, rather it is a tool of the godless intoleristas to
persecute the godly kirkers whose reign shall be for ever and ever. No
doubt Wilson's wholesale contempt for authority encouraged Sitler to disdain any
authority who would check his impulses. (If you disagree with this
assertion, please show me one example in the last five years where Wilson
exemplified humble Christian submission to the civil magistrate pursuant to
Romans 13.)<BR><BR>Finally, pedophiles see children not as humans but as
objects, and the most important lesson that Steven Sitler learned in Moscow was
in the field of anthropology. Douglas Wilson taught Steven Sitler to take
joy and satisfaction in dehumanizing and humiliating human beings made in the
image of God. And just as Wilson strips people of their dignity, taking
sadistic pleasure in flaying them alive with his serrated edge, so Sitler
stripped children of their dignity, scarring them for life with his naked
flesh. No surprise that victims of pedophiles usually suffer acute shame —
inexplicable feelings of humiliation and embarrassment — as a result of their
molestation. And Sitler learned the chief article of his faith in Moscow,
Idaho, where Douglas Wilson, pastor of Christ Church, taught him the ABCs of
dehumanization. (This is also perhaps the best explanation that accounts
for kirkers' lack of horror at Sitler's crimes; Wilson has successfully
desensitized them from<BR> feeling compassion for their fellowmen.
They are "without natural affection.")<BR><BR>No, Christian doctrine is not
limited to a set of credos; rather, it is a system of beliefs lived out each
day. And while Douglas Wilson never approved of pedophilia or taught
Steven Sitler how to rape a child, he certainly helped the serial pedophile hone
the deviant personality traits necessary to commit the unspeakable, and Wilson
did it in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ. Welcome to Christ Church,
Moscow.<BR><BR>Herodotus<BR><BR><BR><BR><BR>----- Original Message ----<BR>From:
Glenn Schwaller <</FONT><A href="mailto:vpschwaller@gmail.com"><FONT
face=Arial size=2>vpschwaller@gmail.com</FONT></A><FONT face=Arial
size=2>><BR>To: J Ford <</FONT><A
href="mailto:privatejf32@hotmail.com"><FONT face=Arial
size=2>privatejf32@hotmail.com</FONT></A><FONT face=Arial size=2>>; </FONT><A
href="mailto:vision2020@moscow.com"><FONT face=Arial
size=2>vision2020@moscow.com</FONT></A><BR><FONT face=Arial size=2>Sent:
Tuesday, May 15, 2007 1:46:42 PM<BR>Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Question for Mr.
Schwaller<BR><BR>Ms Ford<BR><BR>I think what Paul meant by these verses is that
if "someone with a<BR>weak conscience" commits a sin because he has seen you
(with a strong<BR>conscience) commit that sin, then you will be held accountable
for his<BR>sin. For your example to hold up, Mr Sitler (weak conscience)
would<BR>need to have seen Doug Wilson (strong conscience) in the act
of<BR>molesting children, then justify his actions by saying "Well Doug
did<BR>it, it must be OK for me to do it." Since this was not the case,
Doug<BR>Wilson cannot be held accountable for Mr Sitler's actions, in
the<BR>sight of man, of law, or of God. Could Doug Wilson have
handled<BR>things in a better way? I think so. Could law enforcement
have<BR>handled things in a better way? I think so. Could everyone
involved<BR>in this have handled it in a better way? I think so. But
were any of<BR>these individuals or groups responsible for Mr Sitler's
actions? I<BR>think not.<BR><BR>As far as "proof" of Doug Wilson
pronouncing Mr Sitler as "cured", I<BR>have not seen the document to which you
refer, but I will look for it.<BR>I suspect, as in Paul's letter to the
Corinthians which you cite,<BR>there is some fairly important "stuff" before and
after the parts you<BR>selected which may put things in a different
context.<BR><BR>Schwaller<BR><BR>"Once upon a time there were cannibals; there
are no cannibals any more"<BR> Mark Knopfler (and maybe
Jonathan Swift as well . . .)<BR><BR><BR><BR>On 5/15/07, J Ford <</FONT><A
href="mailto:privatejf32@hotmail.com"><FONT face=Arial
size=2>privatejf32@hotmail.com</FONT></A><FONT face=Arial size=2>>
wrote:<BR>> "Wilson is accountable to God for what he teaches and who he
harms, and<BR>> certainly for any deficit in how he handled, and continues to
handle,<BR>> Sitler's situation. But he is not accountable for Sitler's
actions."<BR>><BR>> Then how do you account for:<BR>><BR>> 1
Corinthians 8:9-12 (New International Version)<BR>> New International Version
(NIV)<BR>><BR>> 9 Be careful, however, that the exercise of your freedom
does not become a<BR>> stumbling block to the weak. 10 For if anyone with a
weak conscience sees<BR>> you who have this knowledge eating in an idol's
temple, won't he be<BR>> emboldened to eat what has been sacrificed to idols?
11 So this weak<BR>> brother, for whom Christ died, is destroyed by your
knowledge. 12 When you<BR>> sin against your brothers in this way and wound
their weak conscience, you<BR>> sin against Christ.<BR>><BR>> Just
saying.............<BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>> J
:]<BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>> >From: keely emerinemix
<</FONT><A href="mailto:kjajmix1@msn.com"><FONT face=Arial
size=2>kjajmix1@msn.com</FONT></A><FONT face=Arial size=2>><BR>> >To:
Bob Herodotus <</FONT><A href="mailto:bherodotus@yahoo.com"><FONT face=Arial
size=2>bherodotus@yahoo.com</FONT></A><FONT face=Arial size=2>>,
<</FONT><A href="mailto:vision2020@moscow.com"><FONT face=Arial
size=2>vision2020@moscow.com</FONT></A><FONT face=Arial size=2>><BR>>
>Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Question for Mr. Schwaller<BR>> >Date: Tue,
15 May 2007 08:46:23 -0700<BR>> ><BR>> ><BR>> ><BR>>
>Mr. Herodotus raises some interesting points in framing the debate
about<BR>> >the release of Steven Sitler and the community's response to
it, including<BR>> >Tom Hansen's and Wayne Fox's use of hyperbole to
express their horror at<BR>> >the idea that an untrained pastor can
confidently conclude that Sitler is<BR>> >"repentant," much less "cured."I
caught some flack offlist for writing a<BR>> >few days ago that I
was not qualified to judge the sincerity of Sitler's<BR>> >remorse
and repentance. I believe that still, just as I believe that no<BR>>
>one else but Steven Sitler is qualified to or capable of judging his<BR>>
>conscience -- not Doug Wilson, not Sitler's parents, not the judge,
the<BR>> >attorney, his best friend, or anyone other than the God he is
accountable<BR>> >to. And while this is of interest to those of us
who think in terms of<BR>> >spirituality and theology, it likely isn't of
interest to anyone else,<BR>> >because repentance and remorse (and
regeneration and redemption), while<BR>> >eternal in nature and scope, are
entirely different from law. It is the<BR>> >law and the
circumstances surrounding Sitler's crimes, incarceration, and<BR>>
>release that ought rightly to concern every one of us.Just as I'm not
able<BR>> >to say whether or not Sitler is genuinely remorseful for his
unspeakable<BR>> >crimes against children -- not against "heads of
households," but against<BR>> >children -- I am also unable to judge if he
is a psychopath or a sociopath<BR>> >or if he's sick in ways that perhaps
defy definition. I'd rather not<BR>> >speculate about the link to
Wilson's teachings and the Kirk culture Sitler<BR>> >was surrounded by
and, in doing so, conclude that actual guilt for his<BR>> >crimes is
anyone's other than Sitler's. That's wrong; besides, it misses<BR>>
>the point by focusing on Doug Wilson and not on the error and ugliness
of<BR>> >the theology itself. This is what I was responding to in J
Ford's post --<BR>> >that there was a link, and thus a defined moral
culpability, on the part of<BR>> >Wilson and those from Christ Church who
counseled Sitler. I felt the post<BR>> >was near-slanderous and
otherwise unhelpful to the larger debate, and I<BR>> >preferred then, as I
do now, to focus on the legal aspects of Sitler's<BR>> >culpability and
correction while leaving the spiritual and moral aspect of<BR>> >his
professed remorse in front of an entirely different judge. The
parlor<BR>> >game of "is he more sick than evil, or more evil than sick?",
has not even<BR>> >the value of a spirited game of gin rummy with the
added toxin of gossip<BR>> >and rumormongering. I won't play it.I
would rather focus on the truly<BR>> >awful handling of Scripture and the
bullying behavior toward his community<BR>> >demonstrated by Doug
Wilson. I believe I've made it pretty clear that I<BR>> >find most
of Wilson's peculiar teachings and most of his public comportment<BR>>
>highly objectionable. I also believe that bad theology -- and that by
the<BR>> >standard of Scripture, not my own sensibilities -- inevitably
leads to bad<BR>> >practice, and a continued emphasis on patriarchy, male
hierarchical<BR>> >headship, unbalanced submission and a church culture
that appears to value<BR>> >covenant over character may have made it
easier for Sitler to do what he<BR>> >would have eventually done
anyway. Still, if Wilson's teachings removed<BR>> >some moral
barricade that might have slowed him down, the nature of<BR>> >pedophilia
requires us to acknowledge that Sitler would have finished the<BR>> >race
regardless. Wilson is responsible for a lot of harm because of his<BR>>
>teachings; they've taken root in people who bear accountability for
any<BR>> >tangible harm they've done to others because of their
application. Wilson<BR>> >is accountable to God for what he teaches
and who he harms, and certainly<BR>> >for any deficit in how he handled,
and continues to handle, Sitler's<BR>> >situation. But he is not
accountable for Sitler's actions. I wish Steven<BR>> >Sitler weren't
released, no matter how sincere he is. I remain unalterably<BR>>
>opposed to the death penalty, I do pray for Sitler and for his victims,
and<BR>> >I continue in my skepticism that this was handled as well as it
should have<BR>> >been while steadfastly believing Doug Wilson to be naive
at best in gauging<BR>> >the depth of Sitler's remorse. Why
this hasn't caused people to bolt from<BR>> >the Kirk is beyond me.
If I were considered, as a married woman, not<BR>> >worthy by my elders of
receiving direct and timely information regarding<BR>> >any possible
threat to my children, both Jeff and I would raise the roof<BR>> >and
level the foundation. I believe acquiescence to error leads to<BR>>
>acquiescence to evil, and those who think they're being persecuted
because<BR>> >of their allegiance to Jesus might reexamine their loyalties
and find that<BR>> >blind acceptance of error and arrogance stems not from
following Christ,<BR>> >but from following those who amass titles and
accolades in His name.keely><BR>> >Date: Tue, 15 May 2007 07:39:20
-0700> From: </FONT><A href="mailto:bherodotus@yahoo.com"><FONT face=Arial
size=2>bherodotus@yahoo.com</FONT></A><FONT face=Arial size=2>> To:<BR>>
>vision2020@moscow.com> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Question for Mr.<BR>>
>Schwaller> > Dear Mr. Schwaller,> > You would have "staved off
some<BR>> >ignorance" and "offered up . . . factual information" if you
had simply<BR>> >replied, "We may never know," and even then you should
not have qualified<BR>> >your answer with the word "may" because we WILL
NEVER KNOW what drives<BR>> >Steven Sitler. This is because the man
is a psychopath, i.e. he has no<BR>> >conscience and no compunction.
He lacks the moral capacity to feel right<BR>> >and wrong — and he is
aggressive. One public record (which the court has<BR>> >sealed)
documented in explicit detail his rape of a two-year-old girl, in a<BR>>
>room immediately adjacent to a group of adults. "Perhaps perhaps
perhaps,"<BR>> >you find this flip. I do not; hence my inquiry about
the website in<BR>> >relation to the so-called apology.> > At best,
Steven Sitler did not<BR>> >comprehend that the photographs of victims on
his website horrified normal,<BR>> >decent human beings, which is another
way of noting that he is twisted at<BR>> >levels no one understands.
Consequently, "'cured' is not an option." And<BR>> >as "cured" is
not an option, then it follows that no one can ever trust him<BR>> >under
any circumstance, which probably accounts for his constant need to<BR>>
>have a chaperon, i.e. a court-appointed guardian who will insure that
he<BR>> >does not wander near children. And if the man is so
untrustworthy that<BR>> >even "a distressed result from a polygraph is
going to bring P&P and the<BR>> >court down on him like a ton of Logos
Bricks," then it follows that no one<BR>> >should believe a word he says,
which includes his apologies. Besides,<BR>> >somehow the words, "I'm
sorry I molested your baby," just don't cut it.> ><BR>> >So it is
laughable that you attribute remorse, "even if it was not 100%<BR>>
>heartfelt," to a psychopath, and if this was not so serious it would
be<BR>> >downright hilarious that you manipulated this seeming remorse
into cause<BR>> >for demanding an apology from community members who
expressed shock at the<BR>> >probation of a serial pedophile.> >
Since you represent yourself as new to<BR>> >the listserv, let me tell you
a story. Years ago, Pastor Douglas Wilson<BR>> >used to berate this list
with the question, "By what standard?" I say<BR>> >"used to" because
after hectoring and haranguing the community with his<BR>> >fixed biblical
standard, he proved himself a textbook hypocrite when he<BR>> >applied a
relative standard to justify the unbiblical thesis of his book<BR>>
>"Southern Slavery As It Was." It was really quite amusing, though
the<BR>> >amusement didn't last long. The poor fool ran from here
faster than you<BR>> >can say "Edna."> > I call these historical
facts to your attention, Mr.<BR>> >Schwaller, to ask you two
questions: First, by what standard do you<BR>> >attribute "some
modicum of sincerity" to an apology delivered by the<BR>> >psychopath
Sitler? and by what standard do you ask Messieurs Fox and<BR>>
>Hansen to apologize?> > Bob Herodotus> > > >
>
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