<div>Wayne et. al.</div>
<div> </div>
<div>I disagree with much of the content on Vision2020, even some of Wayne's posts, but I agree with him totally on the value of an unmoderated forum such as this; and that for those who don't value discussions about religion or Christ Church, they can ignore or delete those posts.
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<div> </div>
<div>I usually do not find ignoring subjects I have no interest in or find objectionable a problem when I read or participate on Vision2020. </div>
<div> </div>
<div>Debbie's complaints no doubt express the views of many regarding the dominance of Christ Church issues that sometimes can be found on this list serve. But many others think that these discussions are important Moscow issues, as Wayne argues, which should be an important focus of discussion for very good reasons.
</div>
<div> </div>
<div>Why should Debbie's slant on the proper subject content for Vision2020 control the list? Some people have trouble with freedom of speech, it appears.</div>
<div> </div>
<div>Ted Moffett<br><br> </div>
<div><span class="gmail_quote">On 2/21/07, <b class="gmail_sendername">Art Deco</b> <<a href="mailto:deco@moscow.com">deco@moscow.com</a>> wrote:</span>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="PADDING-LEFT: 1ex; MARGIN: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; BORDER-LEFT: #ccc 1px solid">
<div><span class="q">
<div>Debbie writes:</div>
<div> </div>
<div><font color="#0000ff">"I don't understand why you all don't form your OWN anti-christ church/anti-doug wilson/anti-whatever LISTSERV and leave this one to its origins of discussing <strong>Moscow</strong>
issues."</font></div>
<div> </div></span>
<div>Some people on this forum see some of the actions of Christ Church as a Moscow issues: zoning, sexual abuse, spousal abuse, racism, sexism, homophobia, theocracy, alleged evading of capital gains taxes, misleading or lying at public hearings, effects of on recruitment both academic and athletic at the UI, organizational dishonesty, and cultism. Some people on this forum also see it as a county-wide forum, not just the exclusive domain of certain Moscow users.
</div>
<div> </div>
<div>Some older people on this forum, whose opinion apparently really doesn't count, still remember learning about <strong><font color="#0000ff">"Eternal vigilance is the price of liberty."</font></strong> Some old people on the forum see those that ignore this bit of Jeffersonian wisdom as enablers. For these ignorers/enablers, if the Sitler and Wight sexual predator cases, the ways they were handled, and their nuances and ramifications for the community did not act as a wake-up call, then probably nothing will.
</div>
<div> </div>
<div>Some old people have not only read about, but have observed firsthand the effects of cultism on individuals and communities in other places, hence are more concerned. Unlike Misters Decker, Becker, et al, some people believe that the some of the outré belief-inspired actions of the cult have damaged and continue to damage the community. Some are concerned about the very active recruitment to the community of others by Christ Church who share their outré beliefs and would perpetuate the damaging actions by Christ Church which are promulgated by such beliefs.
</div>
<div> </div>
<div>For example, a letter to the <em>Daily News</em> detailing the cruel and harmful effects on their child by Douglas Wilson's direct and indirect actions with respect to gays is a chilling reminder of the effects of homophobia. [I can repost this letter should some of you be unfamiliar with it.] Some people find these kinds of discriminatory/hate driven actions disturbing, wish to live in a community where this kind of discrimination is greatly diminished, and therefore wish to promote a community discussion on this and related issues. The same can said be for the issues raised by the recent reposting of the Logos School's complete original announcement of the banning of women from serving on the school's board of directors. The same can be said of Wilson's delusional views on antebellum slavery.
</div>
<div> </div>
<div>Wilson has a complete right to express and to argue for his views, however badly they reflect on the community in the outside world. What would reflect even worse for Moscow, in my opinion, is if such views were not rigorously and openly opposed.
</div>
<div> </div>
<div>Some people do not think it proper to discuss others' religious beliefs. The fact is that strongly held religious beliefs prompt actions which have community impact, sometimes these impacts are toxic and harmful to the general community health, welfare, and pursuit of happiness. To these people who think religious discussions are not proper, I urge you to read about the motives of the first European colonists in our country, and whose European experiences gave birth to our Constitution.
</div>
<div> </div>
<div> </div>
<div>Debbie further writes:</div>
<div> </div>
<div><font color="#0000ff">"Your Anti-Christ Church rhetoric and hate has suffocated an otherwise helpful, informative, interesting, lively forum." </font></div>
<div> </div>
<div>Perhaps I am too old to see it otherwise, but Vision 2020 is still a helpful, informative, interesting, lively forum. There have been many local issues discussed. I know for a fact that some of the opinions offered here have influenced officials of both city and county government as well as some other organizations.
</div>
<div> </div>
<div>There is no doubt a lot of writing about Christ Church and related issues on V 2020 for reasons given above. There are also a lot of writings about things that are not purely city issues; some of these issues are national and global in size, but still in the long run the subjects of these issues will affect Moscow.
</div><span class="q">
<div> </div>
<div> </div>
<div>
<div>Repeating what Debbie wrote:</div>
<div> </div></div>
<div><font color="#0000ff">"I don't understand why you all don't form your OWN anti-christ church/anti-doug wilson/anti-whatever LISTSERV and leave this one to its origins of discussing Moscow issues."</font>
</div>
<div> </div></span>
<div>I hope that even critics of those that write about Christ Church will find the phrase "your OWN" offensive. Is there something that we do not know? Are there some individuals who "own" Vision 2020, and therefore have the right to tell those of us who are not among the "owners" what the "real" Moscow issues are, and consequently what to write about?
</div>
<div> </div>
<div>As has been mentioned many times before, once an unmoderated public forum has been opened, only the very naive would expect it to be confined topic-wise or rhetoric-wise. Public discourse bears fruit, in part, because of this wide diversity. As a member of a number of forums, I find that Vision 2020 is superior in at least two ways: It has very little problems with spam, and it has encouraged a great diversity of opinions on issues and of styles of communication,
<strong>some</strong> of which have promoted constructive change in the community. </div>
<div> </div>
<div>With respect to the diversity of topics and rhetoric, some people are not comfortable with this degree of freedom of expression. For such people, the one or two seconds it takes to use the delete key remains a reasonable option and does not deter the rest of us from reading (or not) what others freely choose to post. For others that are exasperated by or otherwise unable to handle the fruits of freedom of expression, there are ways of blocking a particular poster. I have only blocked one person. It is not that I wish to exclude his opinions, but I am tired of getting his offline poison pen notes. Blocking him provides an option for now to pursuing criminal complaints and/or civil actions.
</div>
<div> </div>
<div>If it is permitted, I'll tell you what bothers me about certain posts: Some posters do not believe that it necessary to support with information and argument the opinions they express. Of course they are free to do this, but it does not reflect well on themselves nor the positions they espouse.
</div>
<div> </div>
<div><br>Wayne A. Fox<br>1009 Karen Lane<br>PO Box 9421<br>Moscow, ID 83843</div>
<div> </div>
<div>(208) 882-7975<br><a onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)" href="mailto:waf@moscow.com" target="_blank">waf@moscow.com</a><br> </div>
<div><span class="e" id="q_110e5492293cc516_5">
<div> </div>
<div> </div>
<div> </div>
<div>----- Original Message -----
<div>From: "Debbie Gray" <<a onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)" href="mailto:graylex@yahoo.com" target="_blank">graylex@yahoo.com</a>></div>
<div>To: "kerry becker" <<a onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)" href="mailto:kerrybecker6924@hotmail.com" target="_blank">kerrybecker6924@hotmail.com</a>></div>
<div>Cc: <<a onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)" href="mailto:vision2020@moscow.com" target="_blank">vision2020@moscow.com</a>></div>
<div>Sent: Tuesday, February 20, 2007 8:11 PM</div>
<div>Subject: Re: [Vision2020] vision 2020 proposal</div></div>
<div><br> </div>> Exactly. Christ Church isn't alone it its<br>> interpretations of the bible. I grew up in a<br>> fundamentalist bible-thumping born-again household and<br>> heard this same stuff. I understand that people oppose
<br>> these ideas and find them harmful. I don't understand<br>> the hate focused on one group. I don't agree with most<br>> of the things they teach but I don't agree with the<br>> catholics (also anti-gay, anti-abortion, etc etc), the
<br>> LDS Church (also wanting to keep women in their<br>> 'traditional role'); the Lutherans, the Methodists and<br>> any other flavor of "christian" belief. Where is the<br>> outcry that women can't be Elders in the LDS Church?
<br>> Where's our female pope? Look at those Catholic<br>> priests molesting children left and right!<br>> <br>> I don't understand why you all don't form your OWN<br>> anti-christ church/anti-doug wilson/anti-whatever
<br>> LISTSERV and leave this one to its origins of<br>> discussing Moscow issues. Your Anti-Christ Church<br>> rhetoric and hate has suffocated an otherwise helpful,<br>> infornative, interesting, lively forum. Does anyone
<br>> remember PRE-Tom Hansen/Jackie Woolf, etc? I do!!!<br>> <br>> Debbie Gray<br>> p.s. Tom, I am at home on my home computer (purchased<br>> with wages from the UI), do you want my home address?<br>> Phone #? I hope you like my IP address... i like how
<br>> the numbers make such a random pattern. Do i need to<br>> give a permission slip from my spouse or kids that I<br>> am not misusing my personal time? <br>> <br>> --- kerry becker <<a onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)" href="mailto:kerrybecker6924@hotmail.com" target="_blank">
kerrybecker6924@hotmail.com</a>> wrote:<br>> <br>> <br>> ---------------------------------<br>> <br>> The irony is that this stuff happens in many churches.<br>> You know what kind of heyday we could have if we had
<br>> a mole like J Ford in the mormon church? Think about<br>> it. Now there's some good stuff. Maybe we could<br>> start an "Outing Churches in Moscow" blog? : )<br>> <br>> But seriously, there really ISNT a fine line between
<br>> "dialogue" and "obsession." It's clear as day which<br>> is which and I believe that's what most are trying to<br>> eliminate in these postings.<br>> <br>> Reminds me of a quote;
<br>> <br>> "Great minds talk about great ideas; average minds<br>> talk about average ideas; small minds talk about other<br>> people.--Anonymous <br>> <br>> <br>> <br>> <br>> <br>> <br>
> <br>> ____________________________________________________________________________________<br>> Get your own web address. <br>> Have a HUGE year through Yahoo! Small Business.<br>> <a onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)" href="http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com/domains/?p=BESTDEAL" target="_blank">
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