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<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Paul,I appreciate your cordial and thoughtful
response with regard to the kidnapping of terrorists. I guess I just don't
share your faith in the U.N. or feel comfortable relying on the assistance of
foreign governments to facilitate bringing these killers to
justice.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>As far as bombing Moscow to get one individual
terrorist is concerned, no such thing would be necessary. We could simply
take a page from the book of the illustrious Vladimir Putin, and poison the
rascal.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Best, -T</FONT></DIV>
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<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=godshatter@yahoo.com href="mailto:godshatter@yahoo.com">Paul
Rumelhart</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A title=vision2020@moscow.com
href="mailto:vision2020@moscow.com">vision2020@moscow.com</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Monday, February 19, 2007 9:27
AM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [Vision2020] [Bulk] Re:
Italy sides with terrorists</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>Tony,<BR><BR>I would say that kidnapping a private citizen on
foreign soil is an act of aggression, and shows hostile intent to the state
involved. At the very least, it shows that we don't respect that
country's sovereignty. In this case it wasn't invasion because it wasn't
carried out by our troops, only our government operatives. If harm
against a private citizen on foreign soil is not a form of aggression worthy
of fighting back against, then why have a military at all?<BR><BR>What I would
like you to understand is that there is a huge gulf between the idea of an
aggressive, guilty, terrorist with blood on his hands and someone who is only
suspected of being involved with a terrorist organization. The
difference is that the suspected terrorist might actually be innocent.
Unfortunately, the only way they find that out is after they have moved him to
an illegal torture camp on foreign soil and after they have tortured him
enough to feel assured of his innocence. Then what do they do?
They can't let him go, or he'll blab about their illegal torture camp.
Isn't there something wrong with this picture?<BR><BR>The main difference, I
think, between our viewpoints is that I think that we should be responding to
this crisis in such a way that we don't tread on the civil liberties of our
own citizens, or of those of other countries. Our rights are more
important than the ease with which we can stop terrorism. How far do you
take that idea, anyway? If it's suspected that there is a lone terrorist
in Moscow, should the government feel free to bomb us back to the stone age
just to be sure that one suspected terrorist is dead? It's a natural
progression from where we were a few years ago to that sort of
scenario.<BR><BR>If we had not attacked Iraq, then I would say that we should
be working with foreign governments to track down and arrest terrorists with
the support of the military if needed. That doesn't mean that we should
be invading foreign countries on our own initiative. We should be
working with the UN to eradicate terrorists on foreign soil. Our
intelligence agencies should be working with those of other countries to track
them down.<BR><BR>Paul<BR><BR>Tony wrote:
<BLOCKQUOTE cite=mid002401c753e4$a65cb190$2b88e942@simpson type="cite">
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<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Well Andreas, your question presumes that a
nation harboring an assumed terrorist could be characterized as an
ally. We do tend to use such terms somewhat loosely as far as our
relationships with Italy and Germany.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>And Paul, I would question the use of the term
"invasion" to describe a presence with NO HOSTILE INTENT toward the state it
entered. A presence which has as its sole intent, the apprehension and
bringing to justice of a lone individual. If another state had highly
compelling evidence that a citizen or visitor in America were guilty of
horrendous crimes, and we refused to subject them to prosecution, further
refusing to extradite, it would ill behoove us to complain were that state
to come after their tormenter themselves.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Gentleman, try to understand that you cannot
defeat a sociopathic beast of an enemy by employing the tactics of a Sunday
School teacher.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Later on, -T</FONT></DIV>
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<DIV
style="FONT: 10pt arial; font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch: normal">-----
Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND: rgb(228,228,228) 0% 50%; FONT: 10pt arial; font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch: normal; -moz-background-clip: initial; -moz-background-origin: initial; -moz-background-inline-policy: initial"><B>From:</B>
<A title=godshatter@yahoo.com href="mailto:godshatter@yahoo.com">Paul
Rumelhart</A> </DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT: 10pt arial; font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch: normal"><B>To:</B>
<A title=vision2020@moscow.com
href="mailto:vision2020@moscow.com">vision2020@moscow.com</A> </DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT: 10pt arial; font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch: normal"><B>Sent:</B>
Sunday, February 18, 2007 3:48 PM</DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT: 10pt arial; font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch: normal"><B>Subject:</B>
Re: [Vision2020] Italy sides with terrorists</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>Andreas Schou wrote:
<BLOCKQUOTE
cite=mida80566c40702181510h37734a96q9d55d38832d23523@mail.gmail.com
type="cite"><PRE wrap="">On 2/18/07, Tony <A class=moz-txt-link-rfc2396E href="mailto:tonytime@clearwire.net%3E"><tonytime@clearwire.net></A> wrote:
</PRE>
<BLOCKQUOTE type="cite"><PRE wrap="">Ellen, I think that our government has not only the right, but the duty to
kidnap those who it strongly suspects are guilty of terrorism when said
suspects are being harbored and thus enabled, by a foreign power.
</PRE></BLOCKQUOTE><PRE wrap=""><!---->
We have the obligation to violate the laws of our allies?
-- ACS
</PRE></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>And wouldn't the foreign power in question have
the right to call the presence of foreign troops on it's soil in the midst
of a kidnapping an invasion?<BR><BR>We can't be prideful of our
sovereignty if we don't respect that right in other nation
states.<BR><BR>Paul<BR>
<P></P>
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