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<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Lets take a look at the numbers that go with your
lawn mower car assertion...</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Distance from L.A. to N.Y.C. as crow flies = 2462
mi.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>assume 60mph entire distance = 41 hrs.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>41hrs. on 8gal = 5 gph (aprox)</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>A modern Honda generator with a lawn mower sized
motor of 5.5HP and an output of 2400 watts (ridiculously undersized for the
application but, I'm fudging every possible no. in your favor) will run 11hrs.
on its 3 gal tank or 3.6 GPH.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Should you doubt my facility with small motor
mechanics please check with Mr. Sarff. The electric car you described almost
certainly didn't happen and definitely not as a commercially viable alternative
to even the smallest, lightest, crappiest (SP?) vehicles on the road
today.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>All that aside,the point of my original post on
this topic was if this type of transportation is workable (doubtful) and that
there is a big enough market to make it profitable, (unlikely) why doesn't a
committed band of save the tuna free dolphin lovers get together and save the
planet and make themselves rich at the same time? It sounds as though
there's a ready group of investors right here on the V. I wish you the best of
luck.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>g</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>----- Original Message ----- </FONT>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>From: "Craine Kit" <</FONT><A
href="mailto:kcraine@verizon.net"><FONT face=Arial
size=2>kcraine@verizon.net</FONT></A><FONT face=Arial size=2>></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>To: "Vision 2020" <</FONT><A
href="mailto:vision2020@moscow.com"><FONT face=Arial
size=2>vision2020@moscow.com</FONT></A><FONT face=Arial size=2>></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Sent: Tuesday, February 06, 2007 12:13
AM</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Subject: Re: [Vision2020] who killed the electric
car?</FONT></DIV></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial><BR><FONT size=2></FONT></FONT></DIV><FONT face=Arial
size=2>> <BR>> Once upon a time, about 15 years ago or so, I read an
article from <BR>> Mechanic's Illustrated (I think) about an "electric"
car. An inventor <BR>> converted a lawn mower motor into a generator.
He used that to power <BR>> four electric motors. Each motor drove one
wheel of a small, light- <BR>> weight car. He drove this car from New York to
LA on about EIGHT <BR>> gallons of gas.<BR>> <BR>> The part that
really stuck in my head was that he sold his marvelous <BR>> invention
to one of the big auto makers and his design was buried <BR>>
forever.<BR>> <BR>> Kit Craine<BR>> <BR>> On Feb 5, 2007, at 6:57
PM, g. crabtree wrote:<BR>> Why does your beloved electric car have to come
off the drawing board <BR>> of the "gas/auto industry? If the
technology was economically viable <BR>> and if a significant number of
people were anxious to purchase a <BR>> glorified slot car I would
think that it would be brought about by <BR>> other means. ("hundreds
of customers" begging the companies is hardly <BR>> a significant
market.) Who is it that would not "allow" them to do <BR>> this? If
experience teaches us nothing else about corporations, it's <BR>>
that in all but a few exceptional cases, returning value to the stock
<BR>> holders is what makes industry sing and dance. If there was any
real <BR>> money to be had with electric cars I'm sure that some
capitalistic <BR>> eager beaver would be on the dime and doing it.
(with the help of <BR>> greedy investors) Of course for some, the
"paranoid fantasy" has a <BR>> more romantic allure than the grim
reality, yes?<BR>> <BR>> g<BR>> <BR>> P.S. Vampires working out of a
little dive bar in Mexico are gearing <BR>> up to suck a whole gaggle
of North Americans blood right down to the <BR>> last drop. "I saw it
on DVD." Stock in turtlenecks is bound to go <BR>> through the
roof.<BR>> ----- Original Message -----<BR>> From: Bill London<BR>> To:
Paul Rumelhart ; </FONT><A href="mailto:vision2020@moscow.com"><FONT face=Arial
size=2>vision2020@moscow.com</FONT></A><BR><FONT face=Arial size=2>> Sent:
Monday, February 05, 2007 5:34 PM<BR>> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] who killed
the electric car?<BR>> <BR>> Yes, engineers likely could design more
efficient vehicles and better <BR>> power sources -- but will they be
allowed to do so?<BR>> That is the lesson of the electric car fiasco in
California.<BR>> When the gas/auto industries were able to destroy the state
mandate <BR>> for zero emission cars, they stopped their engineers from
improving <BR>> the existing electric cars, stopped their customers
from buying any <BR>> (or transferrring their leases to purchases), and
destroyed all <BR>> existing vehicles.<BR>> BL<BR>> -----
Original Message -----<BR>> From: Paul Rumelhart<BR>> To: </FONT><A
href="mailto:vision2020@moscow.com"><FONT face=Arial
size=2>vision2020@moscow.com</FONT></A><BR><FONT face=Arial size=2>> Sent:
Monday, February 05, 2007 4:48 PM<BR>> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] who killed
the electric car?<BR>> <BR>> As a programmer, I can't help but look at the
issue of "shifting <BR>> pollution somewhere else" in terms of reusable
programming code. <BR>> It's analogous to moving logic from many
different functions into a <BR>> central library of code. If that
central library of code is written <BR>> badly, then you don't get any
benefit right away and might even see <BR>> your program slow
down. However, refactoring one function can now <BR>> help in
many different places immediately.<BR>> <BR>> This is also true for the
electric car. Yes, it shifts the burden <BR>> from efficient
gasoline engines to inefficient coal-powered plants <BR>> and
inefficient electric engines and batteries. However, replace one
<BR>> of those coal plants with a modern nuclear reactor or a solar or
wind <BR>> farm, and you've just helped the whole equation measurably
with just <BR>> one change.<BR>> <BR>> We're going from a known
bad in multiple places (gasoline-powered <BR>> personal vehicles) to a
known bad in a much smaller list of central <BR>> places. This
can only help in the future. I'm also optimistic that <BR>> the
scientists and engineers will design more efficient electric cars <BR>>
and power-containment technology as the demand increases.<BR>> <BR>>
Paul<BR>> <BR>> Ted Moffett wrote:<BR>> <BR>> All-<BR>> <BR>>
I'm not defending the oil/auto industry in these comments regarding
<BR>> how they have approached electric vehicles, but electric battery
<BR>> powered cars/light trucks are not realistically a large scale
<BR>> solution to US transportation needs at the current time, if they
ever <BR>> will be.<BR>> <BR>> The electric car can lessen
pollution in vehicle dense urban areas, <BR>> but to a large degree
would shift the pollution generated by the <BR>> electrical generation
to power the cars, somewhere else. The US <BR>> derives about 50%
of its electricity from coal fired plants, linked <BR>> to creating
respiratory ailments and exacerbating respiratory <BR>> disease, along
with dumping dangerous mercury pollution and massive <BR>> amounts of
CO2. If the US shifted to far more electric/battery car <BR>>
use, the electrical power demands to charge these vehicles would <BR>>
force more output from coal fired electrical generation plants, thus
<BR>> more pollution, given current coal fired plants pollution control
<BR>> technology. The US now in some areas already faces rolling
blackouts <BR>> during peak electricity use periods due to demand
exceeding safe <BR>> system capacity.<BR>> <BR>> Hopefully, given
that the US has the largest coal reserves of any <BR>> nation on Earth,
and the almost impossible to stop demands for <BR>> incredible amounts
of cheap (coal electricity is cheap) energy to run <BR>> our economy
and technology, future coal fired plants can reduce all <BR>> forms of
pollution, including CO2 output, via CO2 sequestration <BR>>
technology. Then electric cars charged via coal derived energy might
<BR>> truly be "non-polluting," and not contribute to global warming.<BR>>
<BR>> Electric cars/trucks to be a realistic long term solution need to
be <BR>> recharged off sustainable (coal will deplete) non-polluting
energy: <BR>> solar, wind, nuclear fission (I know this suggestion will
raise eye <BR>> brows), the dream of practical nuclear fusion,
etc. There is not now <BR>> even a fraction of the generating
capacity from these sources to <BR>> power a mostly electric nation
wide fleet of cars/light trucks, that <BR>> most consumers
drive.<BR>> <BR>> Of course, we hear often about fuel cell vehicles, a
kind of electric <BR>> car, that does not require charging batteries to
power the cars <BR>> motor, given that the fuel cell generates the
electricity on board, <BR>> but there are still serious problems with
what fuel source can <BR>> economically power a nationwide fleet of
fuel cells vehicles. We <BR>> hear a lot about hydrogen to power
fuel cells, or even to power an <BR>> internal combustion engine
directly, but this fuel takes a lot of <BR>> energy to produce in the
first place, like in electrolysis from <BR>> water. Fuel cells
can run on fossil or possibly some biofuels, but <BR>> fossil fuels
will deplete, and biofuels are very questionable as a <BR>> large scale
solution to energy demands for a number of reasons.<BR>> <BR>> It is easy
to forget the incredible amounts of convenient portable <BR>>
inexpensive energy contained in the gasoline/diesel powering cars and
<BR>> trucks, and tempting to think that there are practical and
affordable <BR>> options to this form of energy, if if were not for the
sinister <BR>> manipulations of the oil and auto industry and the short
term greed <BR>> of Wall Street. I don't deny they are sinister,
and have manipulated <BR>> to stop or slow the implementation of
alternative energy solutions to <BR>> the fossil fuel powered car/light
truck that most people drive, or to <BR>> block more reliance on public
transport to reduce the need for most <BR>> all to drive cars and
trucks. But there are serious technological <BR>> and economic
problems with replacing fossil fueled vehicles, given <BR>> our current
short term profit oriented economy, lifestyle and huge <BR>>
consumption of energy.<BR>> <BR>> Here is an interesting and apparently
well informed discussion on <BR>> electrical energy generation and the
problems with fossil fuel <BR>> depletion and global warming. I
will offer one quote that bodes well <BR>> for wind energy to power
electric cars:<BR>> <BR>> </FONT><A
href="http://www.ieer.org/latest/ourelectricfuture.html"><FONT face=Arial
size=2>http://www.ieer.org/latest/ourelectricfuture.html</FONT></A><BR><FONT
face=Arial size=2>> <BR>> "There is no shortage of energy sources that
have no or low CO2 <BR>> emissions. The potential for wind-generated
electricity in the 12 <BR>> states down the spine of the United States
(North Dakota to Texas, <BR>> including Midwestern and Rocky Mountain
states) is equal to two-and-a- <BR>> half times the entire electricity
generation of the United States.<BR>> Put another way, the energy potential
there is roughly the same as <BR>> the oil output of all the members of
the Organization of Petroleum <BR>> Exporting Countries
(OPEC)."<BR>> -------------------<BR>> Ted Moffett<BR>> <BR>> On
2/5/07, Ellen Roskovich <</FONT><A href="mailto:gussie443@hotmail.com"><FONT
face=Arial size=2>gussie443@hotmail.com</FONT></A><FONT face=Arial size=2>>
wrote:<BR>> I definately recommend viewing this documentary. I saw it
downtown <BR>> when it played here a few months back. For some
reason it, the <BR>> documentary, seems to be getting as much attention
as the electric <BR>> car did. Too bad. But now that it's
out on DVD maybe more people <BR>> will see it. . . . I know I told all
my friends about it after I saw <BR>> the movie. Now I'll tell them to
go get the DVD. Glad Bill brought <BR>> the subject
up.<BR>> <BR>> Ellen Roskovich<BR>> <BR>> From: "Kai Eiselein,
editor" <</FONT><A href="mailto:editor@lataheagle.com"><FONT face=Arial
size=2>editor@lataheagle.com</FONT></A><FONT face=Arial size=2>><BR>> To:
"Bill London" < </FONT><A href="mailto:london@moscow.com"><FONT face=Arial
size=2>london@moscow.com</FONT></A><FONT face=Arial size=2>>, < </FONT><A
href="mailto:vision2020@moscow.com"><FONT face=Arial
size=2>vision2020@moscow.com</FONT></A><FONT face=Arial size=2>><BR>>
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] who killed the electric car?<BR>> Date: Mon, 5 Feb
2007 10:38:50 -0800<BR>> <BR>> <BR>> NPR had a segment on this last
summer. as well.<BR>> -----Original Message-----<BR>> From: </FONT><A
href="mailto:vision2020-bounces@moscow.com"><FONT face=Arial
size=2>vision2020-bounces@moscow.com</FONT></A><FONT face=Arial size=2>
[mailto:vision2020- <BR>> </FONT><A href="mailto:bounces@moscow.com]On"><FONT
face=Arial size=2>bounces@moscow.com]On</FONT></A><FONT face=Arial size=2>
Behalf Of Bill London<BR>> Sent: Monday, February 05, 2007 10:29 AM<BR>>
To: </FONT><A href="mailto:vision2020@moscow.com"><FONT face=Arial
size=2>vision2020@moscow.com</FONT></A><BR><FONT face=Arial size=2>> Subject:
[Vision2020] who killed the electric car?<BR>> <BR>> A decade ago,
California decided to get serious about smog and <BR>> required car
manufacturers to create zero-emission cars. The auto <BR>> makers
did build electric cars for sale in that state. Then by <BR>>
creatively undermining public support for the cars and reversing the
<BR>> state mandate, they killed the electric car. Literally.
Even though <BR>> hundreds of customers begged the companies to sell
them an electric <BR>> car, the auto makers refused (the cars were only
leased, not sold). <BR>> And then the leases were ended, and the
cars were actually crushed <BR>> and recycled.<BR>> <BR>> Though
it sounds like a paranoid fantasy, it's all there in the <BR>> recent
documentary, "Who Killed the Electric Car?" I saw it on DVD.
<BR>> It is a great summary and a strong indictment of the
short-sighted <BR>> oil/auto industry that could only see that big cars
equal big profits.<BR>> <BR>> GM and Ford are now suffering big time with
diving stock prices and <BR>> huge losses. And all I can think is
those dinosaurs deserve it.<BR>> <BR>> For more info, and links to the
DVD, etc see: http:// <BR>> </FONT><A
href="http://www.pluginamerica.com/"><FONT face=Arial
size=2>www.pluginamerica.com/</FONT></A><BR><FONT face=Arial size=2>>
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