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I think of a couple of reasons that electric cars don't sell right
now. One big one is that the current gas-powered auto industry has
been dominant for many years. There just hasn't been as much R&D
into electric cars as there has into the internal combustion engine.
So any electric car you start out with will be likely be inferior to
your lowest rated gas-powered auto. The prices will also likely be
higher. Your market forces at work.<br>
<br>
Another reason is infrastructure. To start a company that designs and
builds electric cars from scratch is a formidable project. So there
would have to be a solid bottom-line out there for the money-men to
drool over for it even to happen. Once again, your market forces at
work.<br>
<br>
And that's without bringing up such conspiracy theory fare as
oil-company lobbiests paying for legislation to disrupt the electric
car industry, as one example.<br>
<br>
Market forces can be powerful and can bring progress and sort out
chaff. But "market forces" don't care about the overall plan, or
ethics, or even the long-term. These so-called market forces are also
useless when a few companies are big enough to dictate where the market
will go.<br>
<br>
I feel confident, though, that there are enough people out there that
"get it" and that understand that the gasoline-powered anything
industry has an expiration date somewhere out there in the future. I'm
sure it will be a painful upheaval, but in the end it will be worth it.<br>
<br>
Paul<br>
<br>
g. crabtree wrote:
<blockquote cite="mid009301c7499a$7ee9ef00$6401a8c0@gmc" type="cite">
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<div><font face="Arial" size="2">Why does your beloved electric car
have to come off the drawing board of the "gas/auto industry? If the
technology was economically viable and if a significant </font><font
face="Arial" size="2">number of people were anxious to purchase a
glorified slot car I would think that it would be brought about by
other means. ("hundreds of customers" begging the companies is hardly a
significant market.) Who is it that would not "allow" them to do this?
If experience teaches us nothing else about corporations, it's that in
all but a few exceptional cases, returning value to the stock holders
is what makes industry sing and dance. If there was any real money to
be had with electric cars I'm sure that some capitalistic eager beaver
would be on the dime and doing it. (with the help of greedy
investors) Of course for some, the "paranoid fantasy" has a more
romantic allure than the grim reality, yes?</font></div>
<div> </div>
<div><font face="Arial" size="2">g</font></div>
<div> </div>
<div><font face="Arial" size="2">P.S. Vampires working out of a
little dive bar in Mexico are gearing up to suck a whole gaggle of
North Americans blood right down to the last drop. "I saw it on
DVD." Stock in turtlenecks is bound to go through the roof.</font></div>
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<div
style="font-family: arial; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; font-size: 10pt; line-height: normal; font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch: normal;">-----
Original Message ----- </div>
<div
style="background: rgb(228, 228, 228) none repeat scroll 0%; -moz-background-clip: initial; -moz-background-origin: initial; -moz-background-inline-policy: initial; font-family: arial; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; font-size: 10pt; line-height: normal; font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch: normal;"><b>From:</b>
<a title="london@moscow.com" href="mailto:london@moscow.com">Bill
London</a> </div>
<div
style="font-family: arial; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; font-size: 10pt; line-height: normal; font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch: normal;"><b>To:</b>
<a title="godshatter@yahoo.com" href="mailto:godshatter@yahoo.com">Paul
Rumelhart</a> ; <a title="vision2020@moscow.com"
href="mailto:vision2020@moscow.com">vision2020@moscow.com</a> </div>
<div
style="font-family: arial; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; font-size: 10pt; line-height: normal; font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch: normal;"><b>Sent:</b>
Monday, February 05, 2007 5:34 PM</div>
<div
style="font-family: arial; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; font-size: 10pt; line-height: normal; font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch: normal;"><b>Subject:</b>
Re: [Vision2020] who killed the electric car?</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><font face="Arial" size="2">Yes, engineers likely could design
more efficient vehicles and better power sources -- but will they be
allowed to do so?</font></div>
<div><font face="Arial" size="2">That is the lesson of the electric
car fiasco in California.</font></div>
<div><font face="Arial" size="2">When the gas/auto industries were
able to destroy the state mandate for zero emission cars, they stopped
their engineers from improving the existing electric cars, stopped
their customers from buying any (or transferrring their leases to
purchases), and destroyed all existing vehicles.</font></div>
<div><font face="Arial" size="2">BL</font></div>
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Original Message ----- </div>
<div
style="background: rgb(228, 228, 228) none repeat scroll 0%; -moz-background-clip: initial; -moz-background-origin: initial; -moz-background-inline-policy: initial; font-family: arial; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; font-size: 10pt; line-height: normal; font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch: normal;"><b>From:</b>
<a title="godshatter@yahoo.com" href="mailto:godshatter@yahoo.com">Paul
Rumelhart</a> </div>
<div
style="font-family: arial; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; font-size: 10pt; line-height: normal; font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch: normal;"><b>To:</b>
<a title="vision2020@moscow.com"
href="mailto:vision2020@moscow.com">vision2020@moscow.com</a> </div>
<div
style="font-family: arial; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; font-size: 10pt; line-height: normal; font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch: normal;"><b>Sent:</b>
Monday, February 05, 2007 4:48 PM</div>
<div
style="font-family: arial; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; font-size: 10pt; line-height: normal; font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch: normal;"><b>Subject:</b>
Re: [Vision2020] who killed the electric car?</div>
<div><br>
</div>
As a programmer, I can't help but look at the issue of "shifting
pollution somewhere else" in terms of reusable programming code. It's
analogous to moving logic from many different functions into a central
library of code. If that central library of code is written badly,
then you don't get any benefit right away and might even see your
program slow down. However, refactoring one function can now help in
many different places immediately.<br>
<br>
This is also true for the electric car. Yes, it shifts the burden from
efficient gasoline engines to inefficient coal-powered plants and
inefficient electric engines and batteries. However, replace one of
those coal plants with a modern nuclear reactor or a solar or wind
farm, and you've just helped the whole equation measurably with just
one change.<br>
<br>
We're going from a known bad in multiple places (gasoline-powered
personal vehicles) to a known bad in a much smaller list of central
places. This can only help in the future. I'm also optimistic that
the scientists and engineers will design more efficient electric cars
and power-containment technology as the demand increases.<br>
<br>
Paul<br>
<br>
Ted Moffett wrote:
<blockquote
cite="midd03f69e0702051329j12fbb5b6of20e59dc7c9daeb0@mail.gmail.com"
type="cite">
<div> </div>
<div>All-</div>
<div> </div>
<div>I'm not defending the oil/auto industry in these comments
regarding how they have approached electric vehicles, but electric
battery powered cars/light trucks are not realistically a large scale
solution to US transportation needs at the current time, if they ever
will be. </div>
<div> </div>
<div>The electric car can lessen pollution in vehicle dense
urban areas, but to a large degree would shift the pollution generated
by the electrical generation to power the cars, somewhere else. The US
derives about 50% of its electricity from coal fired plants, linked to
creating respiratory ailments and exacerbating respiratory disease,
along with dumping dangerous mercury pollution and massive amounts of
CO2. If the US shifted to far more electric/battery car use, the
electrical power demands to charge these vehicles would force more
output from coal fired electrical generation plants, thus more
pollution, given current coal fired plants pollution control
technology. The US now in some areas already faces rolling blackouts
during peak electricity use periods due to demand exceeding safe system
capacity. </div>
<div> </div>
<div>Hopefully, given that the US has the largest coal reserves
of any nation on Earth, and the almost impossible to stop demands for
incredible amounts of cheap (coal electricity is cheap) energy to run
our economy and technology, future coal fired plants can reduce all
forms of pollution, including CO2 output, via CO2 sequestration
technology. Then electric cars charged via coal derived energy might
truly be "non-polluting," and not contribute to global warming. </div>
<div> </div>
<div>Electric cars/trucks to be a realistic long term solution
need to be recharged off sustainable (coal will deplete) non-polluting
energy: solar, wind, nuclear fission (I know this suggestion will raise
eye brows), the dream of practical nuclear fusion, etc. There is not
now even a fraction of the generating capacity from these sources to
power a mostly electric nation wide fleet of cars/light trucks, that
most consumers drive. </div>
<div> </div>
<div>Of course, we hear often about fuel cell vehicles, a kind
of electric car, that does not require charging batteries to power the
cars motor, given that the fuel cell generates the electricity on
board, but there are still serious problems with what fuel source can
economically power a nationwide fleet of fuel cells vehicles. We hear
a lot about hydrogen to power fuel cells, or even to power an internal
combustion engine directly, but this fuel takes a lot of energy to
produce in the first place, like in electrolysis from water. Fuel
cells can run on fossil or possibly some biofuels, but fossil fuels
will deplete, and biofuels are very questionable as a large scale
solution to energy demands for a number of reasons. </div>
<div> </div>
<div>It is easy to forget the incredible amounts of convenient
portable inexpensive energy contained in the gasoline/diesel powering
cars and trucks, and tempting to think that there are practical and
affordable options to this form of energy, if if were not for the
sinister manipulations of the oil and auto industry and the short term
greed of Wall Street. I don't deny they are sinister, and have
manipulated to stop or slow the implementation of alternative energy
solutions to the fossil fuel powered car/light truck that most people
drive, or to block more reliance on public transport to reduce the need
for most all to drive cars and trucks. But there are serious
technological and economic problems with replacing fossil
fueled vehicles, given our current short term profit oriented economy,
lifestyle and huge consumption of energy. </div>
<div> </div>
<div>Here is an interesting and apparently well informed
discussion on electrical energy generation and the problems with fossil
fuel depletion and global warming. I will offer one quote that bodes
well for wind energy to power electric cars: </div>
<div> </div>
<div><a href="http://www.ieer.org/latest/ourelectricfuture.html">http://www.ieer.org/latest/ourelectricfuture.html</a></div>
<div> </div>
<div>"There is no shortage of energy sources that have no or
low CO2 emissions. The potential for wind-generated electricity in the
12 states down the spine of the United States (North Dakota to Texas,
including Midwestern and Rocky Mountain states) is equal to
two-and-a-half times the entire electricity generation of the United
States.
<p>Put another way, the energy potential there is roughly the
same as the oil output of all the members of the Organization of
Petroleum Exporting Countries (OPEC)." </p>
<p>-------------------</p>
<p>Ted Moffett</p>
</div>
<div> </div>
<div><span class="gmail_quote">On 2/5/07, <b
class="gmail_sendername">Ellen Roskovich</b> <<a
href="mailto:gussie443@hotmail.com">gussie443@hotmail.com</a>>
wrote:</span>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote"
style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">
<div>
<p><strong>I definately recommend viewing this documentary.
I saw it downtown when it played here a few months back. For some
reason it, the documentary, seems to be getting as much attention as
the electric car did. Too bad. But now that it's out on DVD maybe
more people will see it. . . . I know I told all my friends about it
after I saw the movie. Now I'll tell them to go get the DVD. Glad
Bill brought the subject up. </strong></p>
<p><strong>Ellen Roskovich</strong><br>
<br>
</p>
<blockquote
style="border-left: 2px solid rgb(160, 198, 229); padding-left: 5px; margin-left: 5px; margin-right: 0px;"><font
style="font-size: 11px; font-family: tahoma,sans-serif;">
<hr color="#a0c6e5" size="1"> From: <i>"Kai Eiselein,
editor" <<a onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)"
href="mailto:editor@lataheagle.com" target="_blank">editor@lataheagle.com</a>></i><br>
To: <i>"Bill London" < <a
onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)"
href="mailto:london@moscow.com" target="_blank">london@moscow.com</a>>,
<<a onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)"
href="mailto:vision2020@moscow.com" target="_blank">
vision2020@moscow.com</a>></i><br>
Subject: <i>Re: [Vision2020] who killed the electric car?</i><br>
Date: <i>Mon, 5 Feb 2007 10:38:50 -0800</i>
<div><span class="e" id="q_110938604eb4670e_1"><br>
<br>
<div><span><font color="#0000ff" face="Arial" size="2">NPR
had a segment on this last summer. as well.</font></span></div>
<blockquote>
<div align="left" dir="ltr"><font face="Tahoma" size="2">-----Original
Message-----<br>
<b>From:</b> <a
onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)"
href="mailto:vision2020-bounces@moscow.com" target="_blank">vision2020-bounces@moscow.com
</a>[mailto:<a
onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)"
href="mailto:vision2020-bounces@moscow.com" target="_blank">vision2020-bounces@moscow.com</a>]<b>On
Behalf Of </b>Bill London<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Monday, February 05, 2007 10:29 AM <br>
<b>To:</b> <a
onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)"
href="mailto:vision2020@moscow.com" target="_blank">vision2020@moscow.com</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> [Vision2020] who killed the electric car?<br>
<br>
</font></div>
<div><font face="Arial" size="2">A decade ago, California
decided to get serious about smog and required car manufacturers to
create zero-emission cars. The auto makers did build electric cars for
sale in that state. Then by creatively undermining public support for
the cars and reversing the state mandate, they killed the electric
car. Literally. Even though hundreds of customers begged the
companies to sell them an electric car, the auto makers refused (the
cars were only leased, not sold). And then the leases were ended, and
the cars were actually crushed and recycled. </font></div>
<div> </div>
<div><font face="Arial" size="2">Though it sounds like a
paranoid fantasy, it's all there in the</font><font face="Arial"
size="2"> recent documentary, "Who Killed the Electric Car?" I saw it
on DVD. It is a great summary and a strong indictment of the
short-sighted oil/auto industry that could only see that big cars equal
big profits. </font></div>
<div> </div>
<div><font face="Arial" size="2">GM and Ford are now
suffering big time with diving stock prices and huge losses. And all I
can think is those dinosaurs deserve it.</font></div>
<div> </div>
<div><font face="Arial" size="2">For more info, and links
to the DVD, etc see: </font><font face="Arial" size="2"><a
onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)"
href="http://www.pluginamerica.com/" target="_blank">http://www.pluginamerica.com/</a></font></div>
<div><font face="Arial" size="2">BL</font></div>
<br>
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