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<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Why does your beloved electric car have to come off
the drawing board of the "gas/auto industry? If the technology was economically
viable and if a significant </FONT><FONT face=Arial size=2>number of people were
anxious to purchase a glorified slot car I would think that it would be brought
about by other means. ("hundreds of customers" begging the companies is hardly a
significant market.) Who is it that would not "allow" them to do this? If
experience teaches us nothing else about corporations, it's that in all
but a few exceptional cases, returning value to the stock holders is what makes
industry sing and dance. If there was any real money to be had with electric
cars I'm sure that some capitalistic eager beaver would be on the dime and doing
it. (with the help of greedy investors) Of course for some, the "paranoid
fantasy" has a more romantic allure than the grim reality, yes?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>g</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>P.S. Vampires working out of a little dive bar in
Mexico are gearing up to suck a whole gaggle of North Americans blood right
down to the last drop. "I saw it on DVD." Stock in turtlenecks is bound to
go through the roof.</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=london@moscow.com href="mailto:london@moscow.com">Bill London</A>
</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A title=godshatter@yahoo.com
href="mailto:godshatter@yahoo.com">Paul Rumelhart</A> ; <A
title=vision2020@moscow.com
href="mailto:vision2020@moscow.com">vision2020@moscow.com</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Monday, February 05, 2007 5:34
PM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [Vision2020] who killed the
electric car?</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Yes, engineers likely could design more efficient
vehicles and better power sources -- but will they be allowed to do
so?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>That is the lesson of the electric car fiasco in
California.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>When the gas/auto industries were able to destroy
the state mandate for zero emission cars, they stopped their engineers from
improving the existing electric cars, stopped their customers from buying any
(or transferrring their leases to purchases), and destroyed all existing
vehicles.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>BL</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=godshatter@yahoo.com href="mailto:godshatter@yahoo.com">Paul
Rumelhart</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A title=vision2020@moscow.com
href="mailto:vision2020@moscow.com">vision2020@moscow.com</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Monday, February 05, 2007 4:48
PM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [Vision2020] who killed
the electric car?</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>As a programmer, I can't help but look at the issue of
"shifting pollution somewhere else" in terms of reusable programming
code. It's analogous to moving logic from many different functions
into a central library of code. If that central library of code is
written badly, then you don't get any benefit right away and might even see
your program slow down. However, refactoring one function can now help
in many different places immediately.<BR><BR>This is also true for the
electric car. Yes, it shifts the burden from efficient gasoline
engines to inefficient coal-powered plants and inefficient electric engines
and batteries. However, replace one of those coal plants with a modern
nuclear reactor or a solar or wind farm, and you've just helped the whole
equation measurably with just one change.<BR><BR>We're going from a known
bad in multiple places (gasoline-powered personal vehicles) to a known bad
in a much smaller list of central places. This can only help in the
future. I'm also optimistic that the scientists and engineers will
design more efficient electric cars and power-containment technology as the
demand increases.<BR><BR>Paul<BR><BR>Ted Moffett wrote:
<BLOCKQUOTE
cite=midd03f69e0702051329j12fbb5b6of20e59dc7c9daeb0@mail.gmail.com
type="cite">
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>All-</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>I'm not defending the oil/auto industry in these comments regarding
how they have approached electric vehicles, but electric battery
powered cars/light trucks are not realistically a large scale
solution to US transportation needs at the current time, if they ever will
be. </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>The electric car can lessen pollution in vehicle dense urban areas,
but to a large degree would shift the pollution generated by the
electrical generation to power the cars, somewhere else. The US
derives about 50% of its electricity from coal fired plants, linked to
creating respiratory ailments and exacerbating respiratory disease, along
with dumping dangerous mercury pollution and massive amounts of CO2.
If the US shifted to far more electric/battery car use, the electrical
power demands to charge these vehicles would force more output from
coal fired electrical generation plants, thus more pollution, given
current coal fired plants pollution control technology. The US now in
some areas already faces rolling blackouts during peak electricity use
periods due to demand exceeding safe system capacity. </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Hopefully, given that the US has the largest coal reserves of any
nation on Earth, and the almost impossible to stop demands for incredible
amounts of cheap (coal electricity is cheap) energy to run our economy and
technology, future coal fired plants can reduce all forms of pollution,
including CO2 output, via CO2 sequestration technology. Then
electric cars charged via coal derived energy might truly be
"non-polluting," and not contribute to global warming. </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Electric cars/trucks to be a realistic long term solution need to be
recharged off sustainable (coal will deplete) non-polluting energy: solar,
wind, nuclear fission (I know this suggestion will raise eye brows), the
dream of practical nuclear fusion, etc. There is not now even a
fraction of the generating capacity from these sources to power a mostly
electric nation wide fleet of cars/light trucks, that most consumers
drive. </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Of course, we hear often about fuel cell vehicles, a kind of electric
car, that does not require charging batteries to power the cars motor,
given that the fuel cell generates the electricity on board, but there are
still serious problems with what fuel source can economically power a
nationwide fleet of fuel cells vehicles. We hear a lot about
hydrogen to power fuel cells, or even to power an internal combustion
engine directly, but this fuel takes a lot of energy to produce in
the first place, like in electrolysis from water. Fuel cells can run
on fossil or possibly some biofuels, but fossil fuels will deplete, and
biofuels are very questionable as a large scale solution to energy demands
for a number of reasons. </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>It is easy to forget the incredible amounts of convenient portable
inexpensive energy contained in the gasoline/diesel powering cars and
trucks, and tempting to think that there are practical and affordable
options to this form of energy, if if were not for the sinister
manipulations of the oil and auto industry and the short term greed of
Wall Street. I don't deny they are sinister, and have
manipulated to stop or slow the implementation of alternative energy
solutions to the fossil fuel powered car/light truck that most people
drive, or to block more reliance on public transport to reduce the need
for most all to drive cars and trucks. But there are serious
technological and economic problems with replacing fossil
fueled vehicles, given our current short term profit
oriented economy, lifestyle and huge consumption of energy. </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Here is an interesting and apparently well informed discussion on
electrical energy generation and the problems with fossil fuel depletion
and global warming. I will offer one quote that bodes well for wind
energy to power electric cars: </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><A
href="http://www.ieer.org/latest/ourelectricfuture.html">http://www.ieer.org/latest/ourelectricfuture.html</A></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>"There is no shortage of energy sources that have no or low CO2
emissions. The potential for wind-generated electricity in the 12 states
down the spine of the United States (North Dakota to Texas, including
Midwestern and Rocky Mountain states) is equal to two-and-a-half times the
entire electricity generation of the United States.
<P>Put another way, the energy potential there is roughly the same as the
oil output of all the members of the Organization of Petroleum Exporting
Countries (OPEC)." </P>
<P>-------------------</P>
<P>Ted Moffett</P></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=gmail_quote>On 2/5/07, <B class=gmail_sendername>Ellen
Roskovich</B> <<A
href="mailto:gussie443@hotmail.com">gussie443@hotmail.com</A>>
wrote:</SPAN>
<BLOCKQUOTE class=gmail_quote
style="PADDING-LEFT: 1ex; MARGIN: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; BORDER-LEFT: rgb(204,204,204) 1px solid">
<DIV>
<P><STRONG>I definately recommend viewing this documentary. I saw
it downtown when it played here a few months back. For some reason
it, the documentary, seems to be getting as much attention as the
electric car did. Too bad. But now that it's out on DVD
maybe more people will see it. . . . I know I told all my friends about
it after I saw the movie. Now I'll tell them to go get the DVD.
Glad Bill brought the subject up. </STRONG></P>
<P><STRONG>Ellen Roskovich</STRONG><BR><BR></P>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: rgb(160,198,229) 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px"><FONT
style="FONT-SIZE: 11px; FONT-FAMILY: tahoma,sans-serif">
<HR color=#a0c6e5 SIZE=1>
From: <I>"Kai Eiselein, editor" <<A
onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)"
href="mailto:editor@lataheagle.com"
target=_blank>editor@lataheagle.com</A>></I><BR>To: <I>"Bill
London" < <A onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)"
href="mailto:london@moscow.com"
target=_blank>london@moscow.com</A>>, <<A
onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)"
href="mailto:vision2020@moscow.com" target=_blank>
vision2020@moscow.com</A>></I><BR>Subject: <I>Re: [Vision2020] who
killed the electric car?</I><BR>Date: <I>Mon, 5 Feb 2007 10:38:50
-0800</I>
<DIV><SPAN class=e id=q_110938604eb4670e_1><BR><BR>
<DIV><SPAN><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>NPR had a segment on
this last summer. as well.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><FONT face=Tahoma size=2>-----Original
Message-----<BR><B>From:</B> <A
onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)"
href="mailto:vision2020-bounces@moscow.com"
target=_blank>vision2020-bounces@moscow.com </A>[mailto:<A
onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)"
href="mailto:vision2020-bounces@moscow.com"
target=_blank>vision2020-bounces@moscow.com</A>]<B>On Behalf Of
</B>Bill London<BR><B>Sent:</B> Monday, February 05, 2007 10:29 AM
<BR><B>To:</B> <A
onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)"
href="mailto:vision2020@moscow.com"
target=_blank>vision2020@moscow.com</A><BR><B>Subject:</B>
[Vision2020] who killed the electric car?<BR><BR></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>A decade ago, California decided to get
serious about smog and required car manufacturers to create
zero-emission cars. The auto makers did build electric cars
for sale in that state. Then by creatively undermining public
support for the cars and reversing the state mandate, they
killed the electric car. Literally. Even though hundreds
of customers begged the companies to sell them an electric car, the
auto makers refused (the cars were only leased, not sold). And
then the leases were ended, and the cars were actually crushed and
recycled. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Though it sounds like a paranoid
fantasy, it's all there in the</FONT><FONT face=Arial size=2> recent
documentary, "Who Killed the Electric Car?" I saw it on
DVD. It is a great summary and a strong indictment of the
short-sighted oil/auto industry that could only see that big
cars equal big profits. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>GM and Ford are now suffering big time
with diving stock prices and huge losses. And all I can think
is those dinosaurs deserve it.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>For more info, and links to the DVD,
etc see: </FONT><FONT face=Arial size=2><A
onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)"
href="http://www.pluginamerica.com/"
target=_blank>http://www.pluginamerica.com/</A></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>BL</FONT></DIV><BR><BR>__________ NOD32
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