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<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Yes, engineers likely could design more efficient
vehicles and better power sources -- but will they be allowed to do
so?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>That is the lesson of the electric car fiasco in
California.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>When the gas/auto industries were able to destroy
the state mandate for zero emission cars, they stopped their engineers from
improving the existing electric cars, stopped their customers from buying any
(or transferrring their leases to purchases), and destroyed all existing
vehicles.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>BL</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=godshatter@yahoo.com href="mailto:godshatter@yahoo.com">Paul
Rumelhart</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A title=vision2020@moscow.com
href="mailto:vision2020@moscow.com">vision2020@moscow.com</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Monday, February 05, 2007 4:48
PM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [Vision2020] who killed the
electric car?</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>As a programmer, I can't help but look at the issue of
"shifting pollution somewhere else" in terms of reusable programming
code. It's analogous to moving logic from many different functions into
a central library of code. If that central library of code is written
badly, then you don't get any benefit right away and might even see your
program slow down. However, refactoring one function can now help in
many different places immediately.<BR><BR>This is also true for the electric
car. Yes, it shifts the burden from efficient gasoline engines to
inefficient coal-powered plants and inefficient electric engines and
batteries. However, replace one of those coal plants with a modern
nuclear reactor or a solar or wind farm, and you've just helped the whole
equation measurably with just one change.<BR><BR>We're going from a known bad
in multiple places (gasoline-powered personal vehicles) to a known bad in a
much smaller list of central places. This can only help in the
future. I'm also optimistic that the scientists and engineers will
design more efficient electric cars and power-containment technology as the
demand increases.<BR><BR>Paul<BR><BR>Ted Moffett wrote:
<BLOCKQUOTE cite=midd03f69e0702051329j12fbb5b6of20e59dc7c9daeb0@mail.gmail.com
type="cite">
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>All-</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>I'm not defending the oil/auto industry in these comments regarding how
they have approached electric vehicles, but electric battery
powered cars/light trucks are not realistically a large scale solution
to US transportation needs at the current time, if they ever will be. </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>The electric car can lessen pollution in vehicle dense urban areas, but
to a large degree would shift the pollution generated by the electrical
generation to power the cars, somewhere else. The US derives about 50%
of its electricity from coal fired plants, linked to creating respiratory
ailments and exacerbating respiratory disease, along with dumping dangerous
mercury pollution and massive amounts of CO2. If the US shifted to far
more electric/battery car use, the electrical power demands to charge
these vehicles would force more output from coal fired electrical
generation plants, thus more pollution, given current coal fired plants
pollution control technology. The US now in some areas already faces
rolling blackouts during peak electricity use periods due to demand
exceeding safe system capacity. </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Hopefully, given that the US has the largest coal reserves of any
nation on Earth, and the almost impossible to stop demands for incredible
amounts of cheap (coal electricity is cheap) energy to run our economy and
technology, future coal fired plants can reduce all forms of pollution,
including CO2 output, via CO2 sequestration technology. Then electric
cars charged via coal derived energy might truly be "non-polluting," and not
contribute to global warming. </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Electric cars/trucks to be a realistic long term solution need to be
recharged off sustainable (coal will deplete) non-polluting energy: solar,
wind, nuclear fission (I know this suggestion will raise eye brows), the
dream of practical nuclear fusion, etc. There is not now even a
fraction of the generating capacity from these sources to power a mostly
electric nation wide fleet of cars/light trucks, that most consumers
drive. </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Of course, we hear often about fuel cell vehicles, a kind of electric
car, that does not require charging batteries to power the cars motor, given
that the fuel cell generates the electricity on board, but there are still
serious problems with what fuel source can economically power a nationwide
fleet of fuel cells vehicles. We hear a lot about hydrogen to power
fuel cells, or even to power an internal combustion engine
directly, but this fuel takes a lot of energy to produce in the first
place, like in electrolysis from water. Fuel cells can run on fossil
or possibly some biofuels, but fossil fuels will deplete, and biofuels are
very questionable as a large scale solution to energy demands for a number
of reasons. </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>It is easy to forget the incredible amounts of convenient portable
inexpensive energy contained in the gasoline/diesel powering cars and
trucks, and tempting to think that there are practical and affordable
options to this form of energy, if if were not for the sinister
manipulations of the oil and auto industry and the short term greed of
Wall Street. I don't deny they are sinister, and have manipulated
to stop or slow the implementation of alternative energy solutions to the
fossil fuel powered car/light truck that most people drive, or to block more
reliance on public transport to reduce the need for most all to drive cars
and trucks. But there are serious technological and economic problems
with replacing fossil fueled vehicles, given our
current short term profit oriented economy, lifestyle and huge
consumption of energy. </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Here is an interesting and apparently well informed discussion on
electrical energy generation and the problems with fossil fuel depletion and
global warming. I will offer one quote that bodes well for wind energy
to power electric cars: </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><A
href="http://www.ieer.org/latest/ourelectricfuture.html">http://www.ieer.org/latest/ourelectricfuture.html</A></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>"There is no shortage of energy sources that have no or low CO2
emissions. The potential for wind-generated electricity in the 12 states
down the spine of the United States (North Dakota to Texas, including
Midwestern and Rocky Mountain states) is equal to two-and-a-half times the
entire electricity generation of the United States.
<P>Put another way, the energy potential there is roughly the same as the
oil output of all the members of the Organization of Petroleum Exporting
Countries (OPEC)." </P>
<P>-------------------</P>
<P>Ted Moffett</P></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=gmail_quote>On 2/5/07, <B class=gmail_sendername>Ellen
Roskovich</B> <<A
href="mailto:gussie443@hotmail.com">gussie443@hotmail.com</A>>
wrote:</SPAN>
<BLOCKQUOTE class=gmail_quote
style="PADDING-LEFT: 1ex; MARGIN: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; BORDER-LEFT: rgb(204,204,204) 1px solid">
<DIV>
<P><STRONG>I definately recommend viewing this documentary. I saw it
downtown when it played here a few months back. For some reason it,
the documentary, seems to be getting as much attention as the
electric car did. Too bad. But now that it's out on DVD maybe
more people will see it. . . . I know I told all my friends about it after
I saw the movie. Now I'll tell them to go get the DVD. Glad Bill
brought the subject up. </STRONG></P>
<P><STRONG>Ellen Roskovich</STRONG><BR><BR></P>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: rgb(160,198,229) 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px"><FONT
style="FONT-SIZE: 11px; FONT-FAMILY: tahoma,sans-serif">
<HR color=#a0c6e5 SIZE=1>
From: <I>"Kai Eiselein, editor" <<A
onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)"
href="mailto:editor@lataheagle.com"
target=_blank>editor@lataheagle.com</A>></I><BR>To: <I>"Bill London"
< <A onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)"
href="mailto:london@moscow.com" target=_blank>london@moscow.com</A>>,
<<A onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)"
href="mailto:vision2020@moscow.com" target=_blank>
vision2020@moscow.com</A>></I><BR>Subject: <I>Re: [Vision2020] who
killed the electric car?</I><BR>Date: <I>Mon, 5 Feb 2007 10:38:50
-0800</I>
<DIV><SPAN class=e id=q_110938604eb4670e_1><BR><BR>
<DIV><SPAN><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>NPR had a segment on
this last summer. as well.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><FONT face=Tahoma size=2>-----Original
Message-----<BR><B>From:</B> <A
onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)"
href="mailto:vision2020-bounces@moscow.com"
target=_blank>vision2020-bounces@moscow.com </A>[mailto:<A
onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)"
href="mailto:vision2020-bounces@moscow.com"
target=_blank>vision2020-bounces@moscow.com</A>]<B>On Behalf Of
</B>Bill London<BR><B>Sent:</B> Monday, February 05, 2007 10:29 AM
<BR><B>To:</B> <A
onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)"
href="mailto:vision2020@moscow.com"
target=_blank>vision2020@moscow.com</A><BR><B>Subject:</B>
[Vision2020] who killed the electric car?<BR><BR></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>A decade ago, California decided to get
serious about smog and required car manufacturers to create
zero-emission cars. The auto makers did build electric cars for
sale in that state. Then by creatively undermining public
support for the cars and reversing the state mandate, they killed
the electric car. Literally. Even though hundreds of
customers begged the companies to sell them an electric car, the auto
makers refused (the cars were only leased, not sold). And then
the leases were ended, and the cars were actually crushed and
recycled. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Though it sounds like a paranoid fantasy,
it's all there in the</FONT><FONT face=Arial size=2> recent
documentary, "Who Killed the Electric Car?" I saw it on
DVD. It is a great summary and a strong indictment of the
short-sighted oil/auto industry that could only see that big cars
equal big profits. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>GM and Ford are now suffering big time
with diving stock prices and huge losses. And all I can think is
those dinosaurs deserve it.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>For more info, and links to the DVD, etc
see: </FONT><FONT face=Arial size=2><A
onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)"
href="http://www.pluginamerica.com/"
target=_blank>http://www.pluginamerica.com/</A></FONT></DIV>
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