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<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Sorry, I'm takin Dan's advise and givin my hard
earned to big timber and the Holy See. Can't be to careful these days. If it
makes ya feel any better, I'll use an electric pencil sharpener to hone up Mr.
Pointy and I'll recycle the water bottles. DO you FEEL better NOW?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>g</FONT></DIV>
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<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=gussie443@hotmail.com href="mailto:gussie443@hotmail.com">Ellen
Roskovich</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A title=jampot@adelphia.net
href="mailto:jampot@adelphia.net">jampot@adelphia.net</A> ; <A
title=london@moscow.com href="mailto:london@moscow.com">london@moscow.com</A>
; <A title=godshatter@yahoo.com
href="mailto:godshatter@yahoo.com">godshatter@yahoo.com</A> ; <A
title=vision2020@moscow.com
href="mailto:vision2020@moscow.com">vision2020@moscow.com</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Monday, February 05, 2007 7:06
PM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [Vision2020] who killed the
electric car?</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV>
<P><STRONG>Jar loose with a few bucks, look at the DVD and THEN report back to
us.</STRONG></P>
<P><STRONG>In the meantime, I don't remember reading ANYONE calling it "their
beloved electric car". First get the facts, then keep to the
facts.</STRONG></P>
<P><STRONG>Ellen Roskovich</STRONG><BR><BR></P>
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<HR color=#a0c6e5 SIZE=1>
From: <I>"g. crabtree" <<A
href="mailto:jampot@adelphia.net">jampot@adelphia.net</A>></I><BR>To:
<I>"Bill London" <<A
href="mailto:london@moscow.com">london@moscow.com</A>>, "Paul Rumelhart"
<<A href="mailto:godshatter@yahoo.com">godshatter@yahoo.com</A>>,
<<A
href="mailto:vision2020@moscow.com">vision2020@moscow.com</A>></I><BR>Subject:
<I>Re: [Vision2020] who killed the electric car?</I><BR>Date: <I>Mon, 5 Feb
2007 18:57:09 -0800</I><BR><BR>
<META content="Microsoft SafeHTML" name=Generator>
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<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Why does your beloved electric car have to come
off the drawing board of the "gas/auto industry? If the technology was
economically viable and if a significant </FONT><FONT face=Arial
size=2>number of people were anxious to purchase a glorified slot car I
would think that it would be brought about by other means. ("hundreds of
customers" begging the companies is hardly a significant market.) Who is it
that would not "allow" them to do this? If experience teaches us nothing
else about corporations, it's that in all but a few exceptional cases,
returning value to the stock holders is what makes industry sing and dance.
If there was any real money to be had with electric cars I'm sure that some
capitalistic eager beaver would be on the dime and doing it. (with the help
of greedy investors) Of course for some, the "paranoid fantasy" has a
more romantic allure than the grim reality, yes?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>g</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>P.S. Vampires working out of a little dive bar
in Mexico are gearing up to suck a whole gaggle of North Americans
blood right down to the last drop. "I saw it on DVD." Stock in
turtlenecks is bound to go through the roof.</FONT></DIV>
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<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=london@moscow.com href="mailto:london@moscow.com">Bill London</A>
</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A title=godshatter@yahoo.com
href="mailto:godshatter@yahoo.com">Paul Rumelhart</A> ; <A
title=vision2020@moscow.com
href="mailto:vision2020@moscow.com">vision2020@moscow.com</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Monday, February 05, 2007 5:34
PM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [Vision2020] who killed
the electric car?</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Yes, engineers likely could design more
efficient vehicles and better power sources -- but will they be allowed to
do so?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>That is the lesson of the electric car fiasco
in California.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>When the gas/auto industries were able to
destroy the state mandate for zero emission cars, they stopped their
engineers from improving the existing electric cars, stopped their
customers from buying any (or transferrring their leases to purchases),
and destroyed all existing vehicles.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>BL</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=godshatter@yahoo.com href="mailto:godshatter@yahoo.com">Paul
Rumelhart</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A title=vision2020@moscow.com
href="mailto:vision2020@moscow.com">vision2020@moscow.com</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Monday, February 05, 2007
4:48 PM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [Vision2020] who
killed the electric car?</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>As a programmer, I can't help but look at the issue of
"shifting pollution somewhere else" in terms of reusable programming
code. It's analogous to moving logic from many different functions
into a central library of code. If that central library of code is
written badly, then you don't get any benefit right away and might even
see your program slow down. However, refactoring one function can
now help in many different places immediately.<BR><BR>This is also true
for the electric car. Yes, it shifts the burden from efficient
gasoline engines to inefficient coal-powered plants and inefficient
electric engines and batteries. However, replace one of those coal
plants with a modern nuclear reactor or a solar or wind farm, and you've
just helped the whole equation measurably with just one
change.<BR><BR>We're going from a known bad in multiple places
(gasoline-powered personal vehicles) to a known bad in a much smaller
list of central places. This can only help in the future.
I'm also optimistic that the scientists and engineers will design more
efficient electric cars and power-containment technology as the demand
increases.<BR><BR>Paul<BR><BR>Ted Moffett wrote:
<BLOCKQUOTE
cite=midd03f69e0702051329j12fbb5b6of20e59dc7c9daeb0@mail.gmail.com>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>All-</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>I'm not defending the oil/auto industry in these comments
regarding how they have approached electric vehicles, but electric
battery powered cars/light trucks are not realistically a large
scale solution to US transportation needs at the current time, if they
ever will be. </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>The electric car can lessen pollution in vehicle dense urban
areas, but to a large degree would shift the pollution generated by
the electrical generation to power the cars, somewhere else. The
US derives about 50% of its electricity from coal fired plants, linked
to creating respiratory ailments and exacerbating respiratory disease,
along with dumping dangerous mercury pollution and massive amounts of
CO2. If the US shifted to far more electric/battery car use, the
electrical power demands to charge these vehicles would force
more output from coal fired electrical generation plants, thus
more pollution, given current coal fired plants pollution control
technology. The US now in some areas already faces rolling
blackouts during peak electricity use periods due to demand exceeding
safe system capacity. </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Hopefully, given that the US has the largest coal reserves of any
nation on Earth, and the almost impossible to stop demands for
incredible amounts of cheap (coal electricity is cheap) energy to run
our economy and technology, future coal fired plants can reduce all
forms of pollution, including CO2 output, via CO2 sequestration
technology. Then electric cars charged via coal derived energy
might truly be "non-polluting," and not contribute to global warming.
</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Electric cars/trucks to be a realistic long term solution need to
be recharged off sustainable (coal will deplete) non-polluting energy:
solar, wind, nuclear fission (I know this suggestion will raise eye
brows), the dream of practical nuclear fusion, etc. There is not
now even a fraction of the generating capacity from these sources to
power a mostly electric nation wide fleet of cars/light trucks, that
most consumers drive. </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Of course, we hear often about fuel cell vehicles, a kind of
electric car, that does not require charging batteries to power the
cars motor, given that the fuel cell generates the electricity on
board, but there are still serious problems with what fuel source can
economically power a nationwide fleet of fuel cells vehicles. We
hear a lot about hydrogen to power fuel cells, or even to power an
internal combustion engine directly, but this fuel takes a lot of
energy to produce in the first place, like in electrolysis from
water. Fuel cells can run on fossil or possibly some biofuels,
but fossil fuels will deplete, and biofuels are very questionable as a
large scale solution to energy demands for a number of reasons. </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>It is easy to forget the incredible amounts of convenient
portable inexpensive energy contained in the gasoline/diesel powering
cars and trucks, and tempting to think that there are practical and
affordable options to this form of energy, if if were not for the
sinister manipulations of the oil and auto industry and the short term
greed of Wall Street. I don't deny they are sinister, and
have manipulated to stop or slow the implementation of alternative
energy solutions to the fossil fuel powered car/light truck that most
people drive, or to block more reliance on public transport to reduce
the need for most all to drive cars and trucks. But there are
serious technological and economic problems with replacing fossil
fueled vehicles, given our current short term profit
oriented economy, lifestyle and huge consumption of energy.
</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Here is an interesting and apparently well informed discussion on
electrical energy generation and the problems with fossil fuel
depletion and global warming. I will offer one quote that bodes
well for wind energy to power electric cars: </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><A
href="http://www.ieer.org/latest/ourelectricfuture.html">http://www.ieer.org/latest/ourelectricfuture.html</A></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>"There is no shortage of energy sources that have no or low CO2
emissions. The potential for wind-generated electricity in the 12
states down the spine of the United States (North Dakota to Texas,
including Midwestern and Rocky Mountain states) is equal to
two-and-a-half times the entire electricity generation of the United
States.
<P>Put another way, the energy potential there is roughly the same as
the oil output of all the members of the Organization of Petroleum
Exporting Countries (OPEC)." </P>
<P>-------------------</P>
<P>Ted Moffett</P></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=gmail_quote>On 2/5/07, <B
class=gmail_sendername>Ellen Roskovich</B> <<A
href="mailto:gussie443@hotmail.com">gussie443@hotmail.com</A>>
wrote:</SPAN>
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style="PADDING-LEFT: 1ex; MARGIN: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; BORDER-LEFT: rgb(204,204,204) 1px solid">
<DIV>
<P><STRONG>I definately recommend viewing this documentary. I
saw it downtown when it played here a few months back. For
some reason it, the documentary, seems to be getting as much
attention as the electric car did. Too bad. But now that
it's out on DVD maybe more people will see it. . . . I know I told
all my friends about it after I saw the movie. Now I'll tell them to
go get the DVD. Glad Bill brought the subject up.
</STRONG></P>
<P><STRONG>Ellen Roskovich</STRONG><BR><BR></P>
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<HR color=#a0c6e5 SIZE=1>
From: <I>"Kai Eiselein, editor" <<A
href="mailto:editor@lataheagle.com">editor@lataheagle.com</A>></I><BR>To:
<I>"Bill London" < <A
href="mailto:london@moscow.com">london@moscow.com</A>>, <<A
href="mailto:vision2020@moscow.com">
vision2020@moscow.com</A>></I><BR>Subject: <I>Re: [Vision2020]
who killed the electric car?</I><BR>Date: <I>Mon, 5 Feb 2007
10:38:50 -0800</I>
<DIV><SPAN class=e id=q_110938604eb4670e_1><BR><BR>
<DIV><SPAN><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>NPR had a segment
on this last summer. as well.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><FONT face=Tahoma size=2>-----Original
Message-----<BR><B>From:</B> <A
href="mailto:vision2020-bounces@moscow.com">vision2020-bounces@moscow.com
</A>[mailto:<A
href="mailto:vision2020-bounces@moscow.com">vision2020-bounces@moscow.com</A>]<B>On
Behalf Of </B>Bill London<BR><B>Sent:</B> Monday, February 05,
2007 10:29 AM <BR><B>To:</B> <A
href="mailto:vision2020@moscow.com">vision2020@moscow.com</A><BR><B>Subject:</B>
[Vision2020] who killed the electric car?<BR><BR></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>A decade ago, California decided to
get serious about smog and required car manufacturers to create
zero-emission cars. The auto makers did build electric
cars for sale in that state. Then by creatively
undermining public support for the cars and reversing the
state mandate, they killed the electric car.
Literally. Even though hundreds of customers begged the
companies to sell them an electric car, the auto makers refused
(the cars were only leased, not sold). And then the leases
were ended, and the cars were actually crushed and recycled.
</FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Though it sounds like a paranoid
fantasy, it's all there in the</FONT><FONT face=Arial size=2>
recent documentary, "Who Killed the Electric Car?" I saw
it on DVD. It is a great summary and a strong indictment
of the short-sighted oil/auto industry that could only see
that big cars equal big profits. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>GM and Ford are now suffering big
time with diving stock prices and huge losses. And all I
can think is those dinosaurs deserve it.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>For more info, and links to the
DVD, etc see: </FONT><FONT face=Arial size=2><A
href="http://www.pluginamerica.com/">http://www.pluginamerica.com/</A></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>BL</FONT></DIV><BR><BR>__________
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