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<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Thank you professor Nick for calculating the
existence of a Hollywood fantasy for us.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>If you simply insist, I will grant constitutional
rights to your E. T. preoccupation so long as you agree to stop supporting the
premeditated killing of innocent humans as they desperately try to develop
in their mommy's tummies.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Take care, -Tony</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=ngier@uidaho.edu href="mailto:ngier@uidaho.edu">Nick Gier</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A title=vision2020@moscow.com
href="mailto:vision2020@moscow.com">vision2020@moscow.com</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Tuesday, January 30, 2007 10:16
AM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [Vision2020] Compassion for
All Life</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>Greetings:<BR><BR>The probability of the existence of ETs is
far higher than the existence of God. The federal government and private
agencies (including a Microsolf VP) are spending millions of dollars trying to
communicate with ETs. Every month more planets are being discovered
orbiting distant stars. <BR><BR>There was life on mars (and may still
be), and there may be life on some of the moons of Jupiter and Saturn. There
is very good reason to believe that we are not the only intelligent beings in
the universe.<BR><BR>Therefore, since a divine being is at least logical
possible and ETs are not only logically but physically possible, then they can
be used to prove the truth of this proposition.<BR><BR>There are persons who
are not human beings (God, ETs, cyborgs) and there are human beings who are
not persons (Karen Ann Quinlan, Nancy Cruzan, Teri Schiavo, and fetuses up to
25 weeks).<BR><BR>This is the end of today's logic lesson.<BR><BR>Nick Gier,
<BR>who wants to be consistently pro-life but his meat eating culture refuses
to go along<BR>At 09:42 AM 1/30/2007, you wrote:<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE class=cite cite="" type="cite"><FONT face="Arial, Helvetica"
size=2>Nick, E.T. was a character in a movie. A fictitious non
being. Could you please try to ground yourself in reality when
addressing such a profound issue as abortion?<BR></FONT> <BR><FONT
face="Arial, Helvetica" size=2>Thanks, -T<BR></FONT>
<DL>
<DD>----- Original Message ----- <BR>
<DD>From:</B> <A href="mailto:ngier@uidaho.edu">Nick Gier</A> <BR>
<DD>To:</B> <A href="mailto:deco@moscow.com">Art Deco</A> <BR>
<DD>Cc:</B> <A
href="mailto:vision2020@moscow.com">vision2020@moscow.com</A> <BR>
<DD>Sent:</B> Monday, January 29, 2007 10:04 AM<BR>
<DD>Subject:</B> Re: [Vision2020] Compassion for All Life<BR><BR>
<DD>Hi Wayne:<BR><BR>
<DD>Thanks for your post on abortion, which, as always, was well
reasoned. You are correct that getting the terms of the debate right
is the key to clearing the surrounding emotional and rhetorical
fog.<BR><BR>
<DD>The term "human being" is equivocal, especially when it is used in the
abortion debate. That's why I insist on the distinction between
moral and legal persons and human being as a biological category.<BR><BR>
<DD>The fact that all reasonable people would recognize non-human ET as a
person protected by our Constitution demonstrates that the clear meaning
of human being in the Declaration of Independence is a moral and legal
person.<BR><BR>
<DD>Do the rest of you sense a lot of flailing about down there in the
Potlatch smog?<BR><BR>
<DD>Nick Gier<BR><BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE class=cite cite="" type="cite">
<DD>The issue of abortion has many facets. One should be very
obvious: Those at <BR>
<DD>odds are arguing in part over the meaning of terms like "the
beginning of <BR>
<DD>life", "human being", etc. Such arguments are only useful if
recognized as <BR>
<DD>such and a set of definitions agreed upon so that the real issues
can be <BR>
<DD>debated. If either or both parties fail to do this, the
resulting arguments <BR>
<DD>are just emotional puffery on the part of those insisting that their
<BR>
<DD>definitions are the correct ones. People are free to choose
how they define <BR>
<DD>and use language.<BR><BR>
<DD>The abortion issue is a very emotional one. I do not know any
pro-choice <BR>
<DD>person who thinks that abortion is something that should be warmly
<BR>
<DD>encouraged except in special cases. I, for one, wish that the
number of <BR>
<DD>situations where an abortion is an option could be reduced through
various <BR>
<DD>strategies including the educated use of birth control. I take
this <BR>
<DD>position because I don't believe that in a free society people can
be <BR>
<DD>persuaded in any great number from engaging in activities that could
result <BR>
<DD>in conception. The fact remains that unfortunately undesired
pregnancies do <BR>
<DD>occur. The point of contention is that who should decide what
to do about <BR>
<DD>such occurrences: Should it be the woman who is pregnant and
most likely <BR>
<DD>the one who will be impacted the greatest by the decision to abort
or not or <BR>
<DD>someone else?<BR><BR>
<DD>Another very troubling aspect of this debate is that frequently
pro-life <BR>
<DD>advocates base their position solely or in large part on their
particular <BR>
<DD>superstitious/religious beliefs. For Christians, there is very
little <BR>
<DD>biblical justification for being pro-life without a great deal of
contortion <BR>
<DD>of scripture. In fact, in the two places in the Bible where
abortion is <BR>
<DD>directly discussed the position taken is morally neutral except with
respect <BR>
<DD>to a private property damage claim in one case, or in the other
case, <BR>
<DD>prescribes an action which would most likely lead to an aborted
fetus.<BR><BR><BR>
<DD>One aspect of this debate is fraught with dishonesty and
hypocrisy: So <BR>
<DD>called libertarians arguing against personal choice.<BR><BR>
<DD>The fundamental belief of classical libertarianism is that the
government <BR>
<DD>(and others) should stay out of individuals' personal choices in
their <BR>
<DD>lives.<BR><BR>
<DD>Those so-called libertarians who are pro-life (mostly men)
apparently <BR>
<DD>believe that personal choice should not be limited only when it is
their <BR>
<DD>personal choice, not some other's choice whose lives mostly likely
would be <BR>
<DD>greatly affected by such choices. Many so-called "religious
libertarians" <BR>
<DD>are truly hypocrites. Their credo is that personal choice
should not be <BR>
<DD>limited except when it conflicts with their particular religious
<BR>
<DD>beliefs/superstitions, many of which are very restrictive and
horribly <BR>
<DD>draconian.<BR><BR><BR>
<DD>Art Deco (Wayne A. Fox)<BR>
<DD>deco@moscow.com<BR><BR><BR><BR>
<DD>----- Original Message ----- <BR>
<DD>From: "david sarff" <davesway@hotmail.com><BR>
<DD>To: <debismith@moscow.com><BR>
<DD>Cc: <vision2020@moscow.com><BR>
<DD>Sent: Monday, January 29, 2007 8:06 AM<BR>
<DD>Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Compassion for All Life<BR><BR><BR>
<DD>> Yes, this is a troubling factor.<BR>
<DD>> I'm pretty sure there really is not a Soy version of Tony
Baloney. He is <BR>
<DD>> now<BR>
<DD>> engaged in seeing his own reflection in others and is striking
out at the<BR>
<DD>> ugliness. Frankly, I openly suppose that he was not loved when
he needed <BR>
<DD>> it<BR>
<DD>> most, during developmental years and uses attention seeking
tools to <BR>
<DD>> verify<BR>
<DD>> his existence. We literally have the screaming tantrum of a
baby when not<BR>
<DD>> getting attention his way. Sadly this format is used as little
more than a<BR>
<DD>> squeaky toy, like a pet dog might. A child in this position
likely needs<BR>
<DD>> outside forces tending to it, but that is his job now and the
best action<BR>
<DD>> when this situation occurs is to not respond. As you are indeed
basically<BR>
<DD>> pointing out.<BR>
<DD>> We can talk around it though.<BR>
<DD>> This kind of problem will continue on this list and across the
globe. To <BR>
<DD>> be<BR>
<DD>> sure there are many persons of differing beliefs,
sensitivities, shapes,<BR>
<DD>> colors and sexes that wisely avoid any emotional stabbing. The
content of<BR>
<DD>> this and other topics is important to many. If the list is to
stay open, <BR>
<DD>> we<BR>
<DD>> must cope with even the most selfish and cognitively
handicapped.<BR>
<DD>><BR>
<DD>> Thank you Debi, with no demands or expectations, my
invitation remains.<BR>
<DD>> Dave<BR>
<DD>><BR>
<DD>><BR>
<DD>>>>This is why more women are not involved in this
particular thread...<BR>
<DD>>>Debi R-S<BR>
<DD>><BR>
<DD>><BR>
<DD>>><BR>
<DD>>>From:
"Tony" <tonytime@clearwire.net><BR>
<DD>>>To:
"Tom Hansen" <thansen@moscow.com><BR>
<DD>>>Date sent: Sun, 28 Jan 2007
17:35:46 -0800<BR>
<DD>>>Copies to:
vision2020@moscow.com<BR>
<DD>>>Subject: Re:
[Vision2020] Compassion for All Life<BR>
<DD>>><BR>
<DD>>>Tom, for God's sake, would you call what Charles Manson had
his<BR>
<DD>>>followers do to Sharon Tate, an "operation?" How then
can you<BR>
<DD>>>characterize the equally barbaric practice of ripping an
innocent<BR>
<DD>>>child from it's mother's womb and then summarily trash
canning the<BR>
<DD>>>bloody remains, as a medical procedure??<BR>
<DD>>><BR>
<DD>>>Think, you misguided enabler! A man who intentionally
causes the<BR>
<DD>>>violent death of an innocent child, is NOT a "physician" but
simply a<BR>
<DD>>>more polished Charley Manson. The result is the same:
violent and<BR>
<DD>>>unnecessary death.<BR>
<DD>>><BR>
<DD>>>When judgment day comes, if there is such a thing, may God
have mercy<BR>
<DD>>>on your soul, Tom, for countenancing our modern age's most
horrific<BR>
<DD>>>crime.<BR>
<DD>>><BR>
<DD>>>-T<BR>
<DD>>> ----- Original Message -----<BR>
<DD>>> From: Tom Hansen<BR>
<DD>>> To: 'Scott Dredge' ; vision2020@moscow.com<BR>
<DD>>> Sent: Saturday, January 27, 2007 6:05 AM<BR>
<DD>>> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Compassion for All
Life<BR>
<DD>>><BR>
<DD>>><BR>
<DD>>> Two things that legalizing abortions (prior to
the third trimester)<BR>
<DD>>> accomplishes:<BR>
<DD>>><BR>
<DD>>><BR>
<DD>>><BR>
<DD>>> 1) Reduces mandated influence of the
government over women's<BR>
<DD>>> personal lives.<BR>
<DD>>><BR>
<DD>>><BR>
<DD>>><BR>
<DD>>> 2) Provides availability of sterilized
environments and<BR>
<DD>>> trained/qualified physicians for such an
operation.<BR>
<DD>>><BR>
<DD>>><BR>
<DD>>><BR>
<DD>>> To believe that abortions will not occur if
they are not legal is<BR>
<DD>>> absolutely ludicrous. To believe that the
number of abortions has<BR>
<DD>>> increased since Roe v. Wade is just as
ignorant. Perhaps the number<BR>
<DD>>> of REPORTED abortions has increased, possibly
due to a drastic<BR>
<DD>>> reduction in abortions being performed in back
alleys with coat<BR>
<DD>>> hangers.<BR>
<DD>>><BR>
<DD>>><BR>
<DD>>><BR>
<DD>>> Seeya round town, Moscow.<BR>
<DD>>><BR>
<DD>>><BR>
<DD>>><BR>
<DD>>> Tom "I'm Pro-Choice and I Vote" Hansen<BR>
<DD>>><BR>
<DD>>> Moscow, Idaho<BR>
<DD>>><BR>
<DD>>><BR>
<DD>>><BR>
<DD>>> "Don't pray in my school and I won't think in
your church."<BR>
<DD>>><BR>
<DD>>><BR>
<DD>>><BR>
<DD>>> - Author Unknown<BR>
<DD>>><BR>
<DD>>><BR>
<DD>>><BR>
<DD>>><BR>
<DD>>>----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<DD>>>--------<BR>
<DD>>><BR>
<DD>>> From: vision2020-bounces@moscow.com<BR>
<DD>>> [ <A
href="mailto:vision2020-bounces@moscow.com"
eudora="autourl">mailto:vision2020-bounces@moscow.com</A>] On Behalf Of
Scott Dredge<BR>
<DD>>> Sent: Friday, January 26, 2007 10:03 PM To:
vision2020@moscow.com<BR>
<DD>>> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Compassion for All
Life<BR>
<DD>>><BR>
<DD>>><BR>
<DD>>><BR>
<DD>>> Tony,<BR>
<DD>>><BR>
<DD>>> You can oppose abortion all you want. The
fact is that whether or<BR>
<DD>>> not abortion remains legalized or whether it is
completely banned<BR>
<DD>>> will not directily impact you. You
personally gain no rights nor<BR>
<DD>>> lose any rights as abortion restrictions ebb
and flow.<BR>
<DD>>><BR>
<DD>>> But would your position on "compassion for all
life" change at all<BR>
<DD>>> if you were affected? For instance, let's
say that I need half of<BR>
<DD>>> your liver to survive because for [insert any
reason] my own liver<BR>
<DD>>> is failing. Let's say that an operation
to split your liver carries<BR>
<DD>>> no more risk of death to you than that of a
woman in child birth.<BR>
<DD>>> Let's also say that the recovery time from this
operation is no more<BR>
<DD>>> burdensome than what women typically go through
from late term<BR>
<DD>>> pregnancies through child birth. Your
liver will regenerate back to<BR>
<DD>>> full size 6 months after the operation.
The question then I have<BR>
<DD>>> for you is this: should you be allowed to make
the choice of whether<BR>
<DD>>> or not to donate half of your liver to save my
life or should the<BR>
<DD>>> government be allowed to strap you to a gurney
against your will and<BR>
<DD>>> take half of your liver to save me in the name
of "compassion for<BR>
<DD>>> all life"?<BR>
<DD>>><BR>
<DD>>> Looking forward to your bobbing and weaving
response - if you have<BR>
<DD>>> any response at all.<BR>
<DD>>><BR>
<DD>>> -Scott<BR>
<DD>>><BR>
<DD>>><BR>
<DD>>><BR>
<DD>>><BR>
<DD>>><BR>
<DD>>>----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<DD>>>--------<BR>
<DD>>><BR>
<DD>>><BR>
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eudora="autourl">mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com</A><BR>
<DD>=======================================================</DD></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
<DD>"Truth is the summit of being; justice is the application of it to
human affairs."<BR>
<DD>--Ralph Waldo Emerson<BR><BR>
<DD>"Abstract truth has no value unless it incarnates in human beings who
represent it, by proving their readiness to die for it."<BR>
<DD> --Mohandas Gandhi<BR><BR>
<DD>"Modern physics has taught us that the nature of any system cannot be
discovered by dividing it into its component parts and studying each part
by itself. . . .We must keep our attention fixed on the whole and on the
interconnection between the parts. The same is true of our intellectual
life. It is impossible to make a clear cut between science, religion, and
art. The whole is never equal simply to the sum of its various parts."
--Ma<FONT size=1>x Planck<BR><BR></FONT>
<DD>Nicholas F. Gier<BR>
<DD>Professor Emeritus, Department of Philosophy, University of Idaho<BR>
<DD>1037 Colt Rd., Moscow, ID 83843<BR>
<DD><A href="http://users.adelphia.net/~nickgier/home.htm"
eudora="autourl">http://users.adelphia.net/~nickgier/home.htm</A><BR>
<DD>208-882-9212/FAX 885-8950<BR>
<DD>President, Idaho Federation of Teachers, AFL-CIO<BR>
<DD><A href="http://users.adelphia.net/~nickgier/ift.htm"
eudora="autourl">http://users.adelphia.net/~nickgier/ift.htm</A><BR><BR>
<HR>
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eudora="autourl">mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com</A><BR>
<DD>=======================================================<BR></DD></DL></BLOCKQUOTE><X-SIGSEP>
<P></X-SIGSEP>
<DL></DL><FONT size=2>"Truth is the summit of being; justice is the
application of it to human affairs."<BR>--Ralph Waldo Emerson<BR><BR>"Abstract
truth has no value unless it incarnates in human beings who represent it, by
proving their readiness to die for it."<BR> --Mohandas
Gandhi<BR><BR>"Modern physics has taught us that the nature of any system
cannot be discovered by dividing it into its component parts and studying each
part by itself. . . .We must keep our attention fixed on the whole and on the
interconnection between the parts. The same is true of our intellectual life.
It is impossible to make a clear cut between science, religion, and art. The
whole is never equal simply to the sum of its various parts." --Ma</FONT><FONT
size=1>x Planck<BR><BR></FONT>Nicholas F. Gier<BR>Professor Emeritus,
Department of Philosophy, University of Idaho<BR>1037 Colt Rd., Moscow, ID
83843<BR><A href="http://users.adelphia.net/~nickgier/home.htm"
eudora="autourl">http://users.adelphia.net/~nickgier/home.htm<BR></A>208-882-9212/FAX
885-8950<BR>President, Idaho Federation of Teachers, AFL-CIO<BR><A
href="http://users.adelphia.net/~nickgier/ift.htm"
eudora="autourl">http://users.adelphia.net/~nickgier/ift.htm<BR><BR></A>
<P>
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