<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META http-equiv=Content-Type content="text/html; charset=iso-8859-1">
<META content="MSHTML 6.00.5730.11" name=GENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Nick, E.T. was a character in a movie. A
fictitious non being. Could you please try to ground yourself in reality
when addressing such a profound issue as abortion?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Thanks, -T</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=ngier@uidaho.edu href="mailto:ngier@uidaho.edu">Nick Gier</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A title=deco@moscow.com
href="mailto:deco@moscow.com">Art Deco</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Cc:</B> <A title=vision2020@moscow.com
href="mailto:vision2020@moscow.com">vision2020@moscow.com</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Monday, January 29, 2007 10:04
AM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [Vision2020] Compassion for
All Life</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>Hi Wayne:<BR><BR>Thanks for your post on abortion, which, as
always, was well reasoned. You are correct that getting the terms of the
debate right is the key to clearing the surrounding emotional and rhetorical
fog.<BR><BR>The term "human being" is equivocal, especially when it is used in
the abortion debate. That's why I insist on the distinction between
moral and legal persons and human being as a biological category.<BR><BR>The
fact that all reasonable people would recognize non-human ET as a person
protected by our Constitution demonstrates that the clear meaning of human
being in the Declaration of Independence is a moral and legal
person.<BR><BR>Do the rest of you sense a lot of flailing about down there in
the Potlatch smog?<BR><BR>Nick Gier<BR><BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE class=cite cite="" type="cite">The issue of abortion has many
facets. One should be very obvious: Those at <BR>odds are arguing in
part over the meaning of terms like "the beginning of <BR>life", "human
being", etc. Such arguments are only useful if recognized as <BR>such
and a set of definitions agreed upon so that the real issues can be
<BR>debated. If either or both parties fail to do this, the resulting
arguments <BR>are just emotional puffery on the part of those insisting that
their <BR>definitions are the correct ones. People are free to choose
how they define <BR>and use language.<BR><BR>The abortion issue is a very
emotional one. I do not know any pro-choice <BR>person who thinks that
abortion is something that should be warmly <BR>encouraged except in special
cases. I, for one, wish that the number of <BR>situations where an
abortion is an option could be reduced through various <BR>strategies
including the educated use of birth control. I take this <BR>position
because I don't believe that in a free society people can be <BR>persuaded
in any great number from engaging in activities that could result <BR>in
conception. The fact remains that unfortunately undesired pregnancies
do <BR>occur. The point of contention is that who should decide what
to do about <BR>such occurrences: Should it be the woman who is
pregnant and most likely <BR>the one who will be impacted the greatest by
the decision to abort or not or <BR>someone else?<BR><BR>Another very
troubling aspect of this debate is that frequently pro-life <BR>advocates
base their position solely or in large part on their particular
<BR>superstitious/religious beliefs. For Christians, there is very
little <BR>biblical justification for being pro-life without a great deal of
contortion <BR>of scripture. In fact, in the two places in the Bible
where abortion is <BR>directly discussed the position taken is morally
neutral except with respect <BR>to a private property damage claim in one
case, or in the other case, <BR>prescribes an action which would most likely
lead to an aborted fetus.<BR><BR><BR>One aspect of this debate is fraught
with dishonesty and hypocrisy: So <BR>called libertarians arguing
against personal choice.<BR><BR>The fundamental belief of classical
libertarianism is that the government <BR>(and others) should stay out of
individuals' personal choices in their <BR>lives.<BR><BR>Those so-called
libertarians who are pro-life (mostly men) apparently <BR>believe that
personal choice should not be limited only when it is their <BR>personal
choice, not some other's choice whose lives mostly likely would be
<BR>greatly affected by such choices. Many so-called "religious
libertarians" <BR>are truly hypocrites. Their credo is that personal
choice should not be <BR>limited except when it conflicts with their
particular religious <BR>beliefs/superstitions, many of which are very
restrictive and horribly <BR>draconian.<BR><BR><BR>Art Deco (Wayne A.
Fox)<BR>deco@moscow.com<BR><BR><BR><BR>----- Original Message -----
<BR>From: "david sarff" <davesway@hotmail.com><BR>To:
<debismith@moscow.com><BR>Cc: <vision2020@moscow.com><BR>Sent:
Monday, January 29, 2007 8:06 AM<BR>Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Compassion for
All Life<BR><BR><BR>> Yes, this is a troubling factor.<BR>> I'm pretty
sure there really is not a Soy version of Tony Baloney. He is <BR>>
now<BR>> engaged in seeing his own reflection in others and is striking
out at the<BR>> ugliness. Frankly, I openly suppose that he was not loved
when he needed <BR>> it<BR>> most, during developmental years and uses
attention seeking tools to <BR>> verify<BR>> his existence. We
literally have the screaming tantrum of a baby when not<BR>> getting
attention his way. Sadly this format is used as little more than a<BR>>
squeaky toy, like a pet dog might. A child in this position likely
needs<BR>> outside forces tending to it, but that is his job now and the
best action<BR>> when this situation occurs is to not respond. As you are
indeed basically<BR>> pointing out.<BR>> We can talk around it
though.<BR>> This kind of problem will continue on this list and across
the globe. To <BR>> be<BR>> sure there are many persons of differing
beliefs, sensitivities, shapes,<BR>> colors and sexes that wisely avoid
any emotional stabbing. The content of<BR>> this and other topics is
important to many. If the list is to stay open, <BR>> we<BR>> must
cope with even the most selfish and cognitively handicapped.<BR>><BR>>
Thank you Debi, with no demands or expectations, my invitation
remains.<BR>> Dave<BR>><BR>><BR>>>>This is why more women
are not involved in this particular thread...<BR>>>Debi
R-S<BR>><BR>><BR>>><BR>>>From:
"Tony"
<tonytime@clearwire.net><BR>>>To:
"Tom Hansen" <thansen@moscow.com><BR>>>Date
sent: Sun, 28 Jan 2007 17:35:46
-0800<BR>>>Copies to:
vision2020@moscow.com<BR>>>Subject:
Re: [Vision2020] Compassion for All Life<BR>>><BR>>>Tom, for
God's sake, would you call what Charles Manson had his<BR>>>followers
do to Sharon Tate, an "operation?" How then can
you<BR>>>characterize the equally barbaric practice of ripping an
innocent<BR>>>child from it's mother's womb and then summarily trash
canning the<BR>>>bloody remains, as a medical
procedure??<BR>>><BR>>>Think, you misguided enabler! A man
who intentionally causes the<BR>>>violent death of an innocent child,
is NOT a "physician" but simply a<BR>>>more polished Charley
Manson. The result is the same: violent and<BR>>>unnecessary
death.<BR>>><BR>>>When judgment day comes, if there is such a
thing, may God have mercy<BR>>>on your soul, Tom, for countenancing
our modern age's most
horrific<BR>>>crime.<BR>>><BR>>>-T<BR>>>
----- Original Message -----<BR>>> From: Tom
Hansen<BR>>> To: 'Scott Dredge' ;
vision2020@moscow.com<BR>>> Sent: Saturday, January 27,
2007 6:05 AM<BR>>> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Compassion
for All Life<BR>>><BR>>><BR>>> Two things that
legalizing abortions (prior to the third trimester)<BR>>>
accomplishes:<BR>>><BR>>><BR>>><BR>>>
1) Reduces mandated influence of the government over
women's<BR>>> personal
lives.<BR>>><BR>>><BR>>><BR>>> 2)
Provides availability of sterilized environments and<BR>>>
trained/qualified physicians for such an
operation.<BR>>><BR>>><BR>>><BR>>> To
believe that abortions will not occur if they are not legal
is<BR>>> absolutely ludicrous. To believe that the
number of abortions has<BR>>> increased since Roe v. Wade
is just as ignorant. Perhaps the number<BR>>> of
REPORTED abortions has increased, possibly due to a
drastic<BR>>> reduction in abortions being performed in
back alleys with coat<BR>>>
hangers.<BR>>><BR>>><BR>>><BR>>> Seeya
round town,
Moscow.<BR>>><BR>>><BR>>><BR>>> Tom "I'm
Pro-Choice and I Vote" Hansen<BR>>><BR>>> Moscow,
Idaho<BR>>><BR>>><BR>>><BR>>> "Don't
pray in my school and I won't think in your
church."<BR>>><BR>>><BR>>><BR>>> -
Author
Unknown<BR>>><BR>>><BR>>><BR>>><BR>>>----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>>>--------<BR>>><BR>>>
From: vision2020-bounces@moscow.com<BR>>> [<A
href="mailto:vision2020-bounces@moscow.com" eudora="autourl">
mailto:vision2020-bounces@moscow.com</A>] On Behalf Of Scott
Dredge<BR>>> Sent: Friday, January 26, 2007 10:03 PM To:
vision2020@moscow.com<BR>>> Subject: Re: [Vision2020]
Compassion for All
Life<BR>>><BR>>><BR>>><BR>>>
Tony,<BR>>><BR>>> You can oppose abortion all you
want. The fact is that whether or<BR>>> not abortion
remains legalized or whether it is completely banned<BR>>>
will not directily impact you. You personally gain no rights
nor<BR>>> lose any rights as abortion restrictions ebb and
flow.<BR>>><BR>>> But would your position on
"compassion for all life" change at all<BR>>> if you were
affected? For instance, let's say that I need half
of<BR>>> your liver to survive because for [insert any
reason] my own liver<BR>>> is failing. Let's say
that an operation to split your liver carries<BR>>> no
more risk of death to you than that of a woman in child
birth.<BR>>> Let's also say that the recovery time from
this operation is no more<BR>>> burdensome than what women
typically go through from late term<BR>>> pregnancies
through child birth. Your liver will regenerate back
to<BR>>> full size 6 months after the operation. The
question then I have<BR>>> for you is this: should you be
allowed to make the choice of whether<BR>>> or not to
donate half of your liver to save my life or should
the<BR>>> government be allowed to strap you to a gurney
against your will and<BR>>> take half of your liver to
save me in the name of "compassion for<BR>>> all
life"?<BR>>><BR>>> Looking forward to your bobbing
and weaving response - if you have<BR>>> any response at
all.<BR>>><BR>>>
-Scott<BR>>><BR>>><BR>>><BR>>><BR>>><BR>>>----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>>>--------<BR>>><BR>>><BR>>>
=======================================================<BR>>>
List services made available by First Step
Internet,<BR>>> serving the communities of the
Palouse since
1994.<BR>>>
<A href="http://www.fsr.net/"
eudora="autourl">http://www.fsr.net</A><BR>>>
<A href="mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com"
eudora="autourl">mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com</A><BR>>>
=======================================================<BR>>><BR>>>=======================================================<BR>>>
List services made available by First Step Internet,<BR>>>
serving the communities of the Palouse since
1994.<BR>>>
<A href="http://www.fsr.net/"
eudora="autourl">http://www.fsr.net</A><BR>>>
<A href="mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com"
eudora="autourl">mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com</A><BR>>>=======================================================<BR>><BR>>
_________________________________________________________________<BR>>
Get live scores and news about your team: Add the Live.com Football
Page<BR>> <A href="http://www.live.com/?addtemplate=football"
eudora="autourl">http://www.live.com/?addtemplate=football</A><BR>><BR>><BR><BR><BR>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------<BR><BR><BR>>
=======================================================<BR>> List
services made available by First Step Internet,<BR>> serving the
communities of the Palouse since
1994.<BR>>
<A href="http://www.fsr.net/"
eudora="autourl">http://www.fsr.net</A><BR>>
<A href="mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com"
eudora="autourl">mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com</A><BR>>
=======================================================
<BR><BR>=======================================================<BR> List
services made available by First Step Internet, <BR> serving the
communities of the Palouse since 1994.
<BR>
<A
href="http://www.fsr.net /"
eudora="autourl">http://www.fsr.net
</A><BR> <A
href="mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com"
eudora="autourl">mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com</A><BR>=======================================================</BLOCKQUOTE><X-SIGSEP>
<P></X-SIGSEP><FONT size=2>"Truth is the summit of being; justice is the
application of it to human affairs."<BR>--Ralph Waldo Emerson<BR><BR>"Abstract
truth has no value unless it incarnates in human beings who represent it, by
proving their readiness to die for it."<BR> --Mohandas
Gandhi<BR><BR>"Modern physics has taught us that the nature of any system
cannot be discovered by dividing it into its component parts and studying each
part by itself. . . .We must keep our attention fixed on the whole and on the
interconnection between the parts. The same is true of our intellectual life.
It is impossible to make a clear cut between science, religion, and art. The
whole is never equal simply to the sum of its various parts." --Ma</FONT><FONT
size=1>x Planck<BR><BR></FONT>Nicholas F. Gier<BR>Professor Emeritus,
Department of Philosophy, University of Idaho<BR>1037 Colt Rd., Moscow, ID
83843<BR><A href="http://users.adelphia.net/~nickgier/home.htm"
eudora="autourl">http://users.adelphia.net/~nickgier/home.htm<BR></A>208-882-9212/FAX
885-8950<BR>President, Idaho Federation of Teachers, AFL-CIO<BR><A
href="http://users.adelphia.net/~nickgier/ift.htm"
eudora="autourl">http://users.adelphia.net/~nickgier/ift.htm<BR><BR></A>
<P>
<HR>
<P></P>=======================================================<BR> List
services made available by First Step Internet, <BR> serving the
communities of the Palouse since 1994.
<BR>
http://www.fsr.net
<BR>
mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com<BR>=======================================================</BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>