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<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Nick, your revered logic would dictate to me that
the ONLY species out of how many millions on this planet that is capable of
sending space probes beyond the solar system, composing great works of
literature or carving David from solid marble, is reasonably viewed as superior
to the other lesser endowed species. Is our existence no more remarkable
than a muskrat when we can compose poetry or construct the Twin
Towers?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Yes, human being is a biological category, but one
of extraordinary uniqueness, endowed over and above the others in a myriad of
ways. They are also, according to our Declaration, deserving of and
endowed with, certain unalienable rights, one of which is the right to
life. And therein your dilemma. You can cling tenaciously to an
irrelevancy, are they persons or non persons, but you cannot deny their
humanity. It seems Nick, that you pick and choose which written
declarations you will adhere to. I suppose we all must. Is the
Supreme Court the entity I most trust in deciding these matters, or do I rely on
the wisdom of those who drafted the Declaration of Independence and our
Constitution? Guess I'll stick with the latter. You apparently
prefer the former, as is your right. I will continue to oppose the
premeditated killing of innocent human beings, but I am willing to agree to
disagree with you if you choose a different path.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Sincerely, -Tony</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=ngier@uidaho.edu href="mailto:ngier@uidaho.edu">Nick Gier</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A title=vision2020@moscow.com
href="mailto:vision2020@moscow.com">vision2020@moscow.com</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Friday, January 26, 2007 9:29
AM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [Vision2020] Compassion for
All Life</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>Greetings:<BR><BR>I will continue to repeat points of logic as
long as some refuse to recognize them. If logic is "heartless," but the
only way that we can communicate rationally, then so be it. Rational
discourse is not regulated by "what folks say," but, heartlessly enough, by
the rules of logic.<BR><BR>"Person" is a moral and legal category, whereas
"human being" is a biological category. The fetus is a unique living
being at conception, but so are all higher animal fetuses, so we cannot draw
any moral conclusions from this fact. But that it also means that we
don't draw the absurd conclusion that a human=pig=rat=salamander. Of course
they are physically different, but are they morally different?<BR><BR>The
basic question is: how do we draw the basic moral distinction? Our
moral, legal, tradition has chosen "significant cognitive function" as the
line between persons and non-persons, and the science of fetal development
demonstrates that this does not appear until about 25 weeks.<BR><BR>In answer
to Kai's response to me, let me remind him that I started with the condition
statement: "If "significant cognitive functioning" . . . is not the way we
sort out persons from non-persons, . . ."<BR><BR>I support this traditional
view, so everything that follows after that is hypothetical, and I
deliberately hyped it so as to show that it simply won't happen, even though
our biosphere would improve dramatically if it did.<BR><BR>For at least 6,000
years, thousands of Hindus and Jains have eaten a strict vegetarian
diet. During that time they developed systems of logic, science, and
math that are amazing. For example, we owe to them the invention of the
zero.<BR><BR>But even if Kai is correct that meat eating was necessary for the
early development of the human brain, we now have the technology to thrive on
a nonmeat diet, one that I believe is necessary to alleviate the environmental
disaster of increasing cattle raising.<BR><BR>Would anyone like to participate
in my soy bologna taste test? I'll give you fair warning: many people
have chosen the soy product as the "real" bologna!<BR><BR>Veggie Burgers
Forever,<BR><BR>Nick Gier<BR><BR><BR>At 08:24 AM 1/26/2007, you wrote:<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE class=cite cite="" type="cite"><FONT face="Arial, Helvetica"
size=2>Nick, "persons from non-persons" is a heartless
rationalization. The question is: human or non-human. I
understand that you feel a pig is a rat is a boy - that human beings have
the exact same value in your world as say, a salamander. Most folks
would question such a value system however, whether from a religious
standpoint or otherwise. <BR></FONT> <BR><FONT
face="Arial, Helvetica" size=2>As for veggie burgers, I might consider
switching over if we used Paul's recipe.<BR></FONT> <BR><FONT
face="Arial, Helvetica" size=2>Later, -T<BR></FONT>
<DL>
<DD>----- Original Message ----- <BR>
<DD>From:</B> <A href="mailto:ngier@uidaho.edu">Nick Gier</A> <BR>
<DD>To:</B> <A
href="mailto:vision2020@moscow.com">vision2020@moscow.com</A> <BR>
<DD>Sent:</B> Thursday, January 25, 2007 9:41 AM<BR>
<DD>Subject:</B> Re: [Vision2020] Compassion for All Life<BR><BR>
<DD>Greetings:<BR><BR>
<DD>If "significant cognitive functioning" (beautiful description of the
traditional view!) is not the way we sort out persons from non-persons,
then please join with me in extending unconditional compassion to all the
animals that are killed every day to feed the several billion carnivorous
maws all over the world.<BR><BR>
<DD>This is an unnecessary slaughter because we can grow complete
vegetable protein at a much lower cost and with much less damage to the
environment. Just as the earth and its atmosphere cannot bear
developing countries owning as many cars as we do, neither can the earth
bear the increased meat consumption that these countries are
experiencing. <BR><BR>
<DD>Both addictions, one to oil and the other to animal flesh, will be the
end of us. Millions of acres of the Amazonian rain forest are cut
ever year to make way for raising beef cattle, pouring tons of CO2 and CH4
(from bovine stomachs) into the air.<BR><BR>
<DD>If the tradition distinction between persons and non-persons is
ignored, then the only moral option is to recognize that all life has a
serious moral right to live.<BR><BR>
<DD>Veggie Burgers Forever!<BR><BR>
<DD>Nick Gier<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE class=cite cite="" type="cite">
<DD><FONT face="Arial, Helvetica" size=2>Oh professor, how you cling to
a specious distinction. You may view "significant cognitive
functioning" as helpful in defining personhood so as to rationalize
killing, but it is still the taking of a human life. For humans
who were allowed to grow to adulthood unmolested to decide to kill those
who have yet to develope fully is the very height of callousness and
insensetivity. You can blame tradition all you like but as I
pointed out, tradition is frequently wrong and in this case you are
tragically wrong along with it.<BR></FONT>
<DD><BR>
<DD><FONT face="Arial, Helvetica" size=2>What kind of an ethical vacuum
do you live in which regards the murder of the innocent as a "good
tradition?" If you truly believe this, you are not being
intellectually honest, but rather morally bankrupt.<BR></FONT>
<DD><BR>
<DD><FONT face="Arial, Helvetica" size=2>Now go grow some
compassion. -T</FONT>
<DL>
<DD>----- Original Message -----
<DD>From: <A href="mailto:ngier@uidaho.edu">Nick Gier</A>
<DD>To: <A
href="mailto:vision2020@moscow.com">vision2020@moscow.com</A>
<DD>Sent: Thursday, January 25, 2007 8:59 AM
<DD>Subject: [Vision2020] African Americans and Fetuses<BR>
<DD>Greetings:<BR>
<DD>The traditional view of moral and legal persons, coming from our
combined religious, moral, and legal histories, eventually won out
with regard to recognizing African Americans as full moral and legal
persons. In my article on abortion I've applied the same
definition to the early fetus and the logic of the definition does not
fit. To force fit a definition is simple intellectual
dishonesty.<BR><BR>
<DD>Therefore, there is no moral equivalence between recognizing
people of color as persons and fetuses before 25 weeks.<BR>
<DD>Just being a good conservative by preserving good traditions,<BR>
<DD>Nick Gier<BR>
<DD>At 07:25 AM 1/25/2007, you wrote:
<BLOCKQUOTE class=cite cite="" type="cite">
<DD><FONT face="Arial, Helvetica" size=2>Yes Nick, and under our
laws in 1850, black folks could be held as slaves. The point
is professor, that it is high time the rights the rest of us enjoy
are extended to today's disenfranchised: the unborn. How
disappointing to see you on the wrong side of history this
time. Would you have rationalized the Dred Scott decision in
its day?</FONT>
<DD>
<DD><FONT face="Arial, Helvetica" size=2>Tragic.</FONT>
<DD>
<DD><FONT face="Arial, Helvetica" size=2>-T</FONT>
<DL>
<DD>----- Original Message -----
<DD>From: <A href="mailto:ngier@uidaho.edu">Nick Gier</A>
<DD>To: <A href="mailto:tonytime@clearwire.net">Tony</A>
<DD>Sent: Wednesday, January 24, 2007 9:31 AM
<DD>Subject: Re: [Vision2020] One More "Killer" Released Because
of DNA
<DD>Greetings:
<DD>Under our laws the crime of murder can happen only against
moral and legal persons. Our religious, moral, and legal
tradition does not recognize first and second trimester fetuses as
persons. Once again I provide the link for my essay on
abortion: <A href="http://www.class.uidaho.edu/ngier/abortion.htm"
eudora="autourl">www.class.uidaho.edu/ngier/abortion.htm</A>.
<DD>Fetuses are of course biological human beings from conception
on, but so are thousands of other animal species. As a
vegetarian I'm quite willing to shift to a consistent pro-life
position, but I believe that most people are not willing to do
this. The moral ball is in their court, and it's their
serve.
<DD>Veggie Burgers Forever!
<DD>Nick Gier
<DD>At 09:22 AM 1/24/2007, you wrote:
<BLOCKQUOTE class=cite cite="" type="cite">
<DD>Nick, I was heartened to see you change your mind with
regard to abortion. You are absolutely correct that the state
should not be in the business of premeditated murder, especially
in the case of those who are innocent in EVERY case. It is such
a joy to see reason and compassion prevail. Best, -T
----- Original Message ----- From: <nickgier@adelphia.net>
To: <vision2020@moscow.com> Sent: Wednesday, January 24,
2007 8:57 AM Subject: [Vision2020] One More "Killer" Released
Because of DNA > Greetings: > > Fortunately, most DNA
exonerations are happening with prisoners who are > still
alive. The real injustice, however, is those, now over
100, who > were executed before the tests could be done. >
> The state should not be in the business of premeditated
murder, especially > if it cannot be sure of that its victims
are guilty. > > Nick Gier > > January 24, 2007, NY
Times > With DNA From Exhumed Body, Man Finally Wins Freedom
> By FERNANDA SANTOS > > AUBURN, N.Y., Jan. 23 — Roy
Brown, who spent 15 yeears in prison on a > murder conviction
and uncovered evidence while there that linked another > man
to the crime, was released from prison on Tuesday after DNA
tests on > the other man’s exhumed body matched saliva on a
nightshirt at the crime > scene. > > After 15 years
behind bars, Mr. Brown stepped out of court into a light >
snowfall and gently pushed his way through a cluster of
relatives who vied > for his attention. The reception was
fine, he said, but he is too sick > with liver disease to
stand on his feet for long. > > “Changes have got to be
made, man,” Mr. Brown said later at a lawyer’s > office
across the street, answering questions in a monotone as he
rested > awkwardly in a black swivel chair. “They say the
wheels of justice move > slowly, but you know what? The
wheels of justice are flat.” > > Mr. Brown, 46, is the
eighth person in New York State exonerated through > DNA
evidence in the past 13 months, more than in any other state
during > the same period. > > The DNA tests that freed
him confirmed the results of his own jailhouse >
investigation, in which he discovered documents that
incriminated Barry > Bench, a volunteer firefighter, in the
murder of Sabina Kulakowski, 49, a > social worker who had
lived with Mr. Bench’s brother until months before > her
death. Earlier DNA tests conducted by Mr. Brown’s lawyers
linked Mr. > Bench’s daughter, Katherine Eckstadt, to the
genetic code lifted from the > saliva on Ms. Kulakowski’s
nightshirt. > >
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> <A
href="mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com"
eudora="autourl">mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com</A> >
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> =======================================================
List services made available by First Step Internet, serving the
communities of the Palouse since
1994.
<A
href="http://www.fsr.net /"
eudora="autourl">http://www.fsr.net
</A>
<A href="mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com"
eudora="autourl">mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com</A>
=======================================================</DD></BLOCKQUOTE>
<DD>"Truth is the summit of being; justice is the application of
it to human affairs."
<DD>--Ralph Waldo Emerson
<DD>"Abstract truth has no value unless it incarnates in human
beings who represent it, by proving their readiness to die for
it."
<DD> --Mohandas Gandhi
<DD>"Modern physics has taught us that the nature of any system
cannot be discovered by dividing it into its component parts and
studying each part by itself. . . .We must keep our attention
fixed on the whole and on the interconnection between the parts.
The same is true of our intellectual life. It is impossible to
make a clear cut between science, religion, and art. The whole is
never equal simply to the sum of its various parts." --Ma<FONT
size=1>x Planck<BR><BR></FONT>
<DD>Nicholas F. Gier
<DD>Professor Emeritus, Department of Philosophy, University of
Idaho
<DD>1037 Colt Rd., Moscow, ID 83843
<DD><A href="http://users.adelphia.net/~nickgier/home.htm"
eudora="autourl">http://users.adelphia.net/~nickgier/home.htm</A>
<DD>208-882-9212/FAX 885-8950
<DD>President, Idaho Federation of Teachers, AFL-CIO
<DD><A href="http://users.adelphia.net/~nickgier/ift.htm"
eudora="autourl">http://users.adelphia.net/~nickgier/ift.htm</A></DD></DL></DD></BLOCKQUOTE></DD></DL></DD></BLOCKQUOTE></DD></DL><BR>
<DD>"Truth is the summit of being; justice is the application of it to human
affairs."<BR>
<DD>--Ralph Waldo Emerson<BR><BR>
<DD>"Abstract truth has no value unless it incarnates in human beings who
represent it, by proving their readiness to die for it."<BR>
<DD> --Mohandas Gandhi<BR><BR>
<DD>"Modern physics has taught us that the nature of any system cannot be
discovered by dividing it into its component parts and studying each part by
itself. . . .We must keep our attention fixed on the whole and on the
interconnection between the parts. The same is true of our intellectual
life. It is impossible to make a clear cut between science, religion, and
art. The whole is never equal simply to the sum of its various parts."
--Ma<FONT size=1>x Planck<BR><BR></FONT>
<DD>Nicholas F. Gier<BR>
<DD>Professor Emeritus, Department of Philosophy, University of Idaho<BR>
<DD>1037 Colt Rd., Moscow, ID 83843<BR>
<DD><A href="http://users.adelphia.net/~nickgier/home.htm"
eudora="autourl">http://users.adelphia.net/~nickgier/home.htm</A><BR>
<DD>208-882-9212/FAX 885-8950<BR>
<DD>President, Idaho Federation of Teachers, AFL-CIO<BR>
<DD><A href="http://users.adelphia.net/~nickgier/ift.htm"
eudora="autourl">http://users.adelphia.net/~nickgier/ift.htm</A><BR><BR>
<HR>
<DD>=======================================================<BR>
<DD> List services made available by First Step Internet, <BR>
<DD> serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.
<BR>
<DD>
<A
href="http://www.fsr.net /"
eudora="autourl">http://www.fsr.net
</A><BR>
<DD> <A
href="mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com"
eudora="autourl">mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com</A><BR>
<DD>=======================================================</DD></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
<DD>"Truth is the summit of being; justice is the application of it to human
affairs."<BR>
<DD>--Ralph Waldo Emerson<BR><BR>
<DD>"Abstract truth has no value unless it incarnates in human beings who
represent it, by proving their readiness to die for it."<BR>
<DD> --Mohandas Gandhi<BR><BR>
<DD>"Modern physics has taught us that the nature of any system cannot be
discovered by dividing it into its component parts and studying each part by
itself. . . .We must keep our attention fixed on the whole and on the
interconnection between the parts. The same is true of our intellectual life.
It is impossible to make a clear cut between science, religion, and art. The
whole is never equal simply to the sum of its various parts." --Ma<FONT
size=1>x Planck<BR><BR></FONT>
<DD>Nicholas F. Gier<BR>
<DD>Professor Emeritus, Department of Philosophy, University of Idaho<BR>
<DD>1037 Colt Rd., Moscow, ID 83843<BR>
<DD><A href="http://users.adelphia.net/~nickgier/home.htm"
eudora="autourl">http://users.adelphia.net/~nickgier/home.htm</A><BR>
<DD>208-882-9212/FAX 885-8950<BR>
<DD>President, Idaho Federation of Teachers, AFL-CIO<BR>
<DD><A href="http://users.adelphia.net/~nickgier/ift.htm"
eudora="autourl">http://users.adelphia.net/~nickgier/ift.htm</A><BR><BR>
<HR>
<DD>=======================================================<BR>
<DD> List services made available by First Step Internet, <BR>
<DD> serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994. <BR>
<DD>
<A
href="http://www.fsr.net /"
eudora="autourl">http://www.fsr.net
</A><BR>
<DD> <A
href="mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com"
eudora="autourl">mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com</A><BR>
<DD>=======================================================<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE><X-SIGSEP>
<P></X-SIGSEP>
<DL></DL><FONT size=2>"Truth is the summit of being; justice is the
application of it to human affairs."<BR>--Ralph Waldo Emerson<BR><BR>"Abstract
truth has no value unless it incarnates in human beings who represent it, by
proving their readiness to die for it."<BR> --Mohandas
Gandhi<BR><BR>"Modern physics has taught us that the nature of any system
cannot be discovered by dividing it into its component parts and studying each
part by itself. . . .We must keep our attention fixed on the whole and on the
interconnection between the parts. The same is true of our intellectual life.
It is impossible to make a clear cut between science, religion, and art. The
whole is never equal simply to the sum of its various parts." --Ma</FONT><FONT
size=1>x Planck<BR><BR></FONT>Nicholas F. Gier<BR>Professor Emeritus,
Department of Philosophy, University of Idaho<BR>1037 Colt Rd., Moscow, ID
83843<BR><A href="http://users.adelphia.net/~nickgier/home.htm"
eudora="autourl">http://users.adelphia.net/~nickgier/home.htm<BR></A>208-882-9212/FAX
885-8950<BR>President, Idaho Federation of Teachers, AFL-CIO<BR><A
href="http://users.adelphia.net/~nickgier/ift.htm"
eudora="autourl">http://users.adelphia.net/~nickgier/ift.htm<BR><BR></A>
<P>
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