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<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Nick, "persons from non-persons" is
a heartless rationalization. The question is: human or
non-human. I understand that you feel a pig is a rat is a boy - that human
beings have the exact same value in your world as say, a salamander. Most
folks would question such a value system however, whether from a religious
standpoint or otherwise. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>As for veggie burgers, I might consider switching
over if we used Paul's recipe.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Later, -T</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=ngier@uidaho.edu href="mailto:ngier@uidaho.edu">Nick Gier</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A title=vision2020@moscow.com
href="mailto:vision2020@moscow.com">vision2020@moscow.com</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Thursday, January 25, 2007 9:41
AM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [Vision2020] Compassion for
All Life</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>Greetings:<BR><BR>If "significant cognitive functioning"
(beautiful description of the traditional view!) is not the way we sort out
persons from non-persons, then please join with me in extending unconditional
compassion to all the animals that are killed every day to feed the several
billion carnivorous maws all over the world.<BR><BR>This is an unnecessary
slaughter because we can grow complete vegetable protein at a much lower cost
and with much less damage to the environment. Just as the earth and its
atmosphere cannot bear developing countries owning as many cars as we do,
neither can the earth bear the increased meat consumption that these countries
are experiencing. <BR><BR>Both addictions, one to oil and the other to
animal flesh, will be the end of us. Millions of acres of the Amazonian
rain forest are cut ever year to make way for raising beef cattle, pouring
tons of CO2 and CH4 (from bovine stomachs) into the air.<BR><BR>If the
tradition distinction between persons and non-persons is ignored, then the
only moral option is to recognize that all life has a serious moral right to
live.<BR><BR>Veggie Burgers Forever!<BR><BR>Nick Gier<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE class=cite cite="" type="cite"><FONT face="Arial, Helvetica"
size=2>Oh professor, how you cling to a specious distinction. You may
view "significant cognitive functioning" as helpful in defining personhood
so as to rationalize killing, but it is still the taking of a human
life. For humans who were allowed to grow to adulthood unmolested to
decide to kill those who have yet to develope fully is the very height of
callousness and insensetivity. You can blame tradition all you like
but as I pointed out, tradition is frequently wrong and in this case you are
tragically wrong along with it.<BR></FONT> <BR><FONT
face="Arial, Helvetica" size=2>What kind of an ethical vacuum do you live in
which regards the murder of the innocent as a "good tradition?" If you
truly believe this, you are not being intellectually honest, but rather
morally bankrupt.<BR></FONT> <BR><FONT face="Arial, Helvetica"
size=2>Now go grow some compassion. -T</FONT> <BR>
<DL>
<DD>----- Original Message ----- <BR>
<DD>From:</B> <A href="mailto:ngier@uidaho.edu">Nick Gier</A> <BR>
<DD>To:</B> <A
href="mailto:vision2020@moscow.com">vision2020@moscow.com</A> <BR>
<DD>Sent:</B> Thursday, January 25, 2007 8:59 AM<BR>
<DD>Subject:</B> [Vision2020] African Americans and Fetuses<BR><BR>
<DD>Greetings:<BR><BR>
<DD>The traditional view of moral and legal persons, coming from our
combined religious, moral, and legal histories, eventually won out with
regard to recognizing African Americans as full moral and legal
persons. In my article on abortion I've applied the same definition
to the early fetus and the logic of the definition does not fit. To
force fit a definition is simple intellectual dishonesty.<BR><BR>
<DD>Therefore, there is no moral equivalence between recognizing people of
color as persons and fetuses before 25 weeks.<BR><BR>
<DD>Just being a good conservative by preserving good traditions,<BR><BR>
<DD>Nick Gier<BR><BR>
<DD>At 07:25 AM 1/25/2007, you wrote:<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE class=cite cite="" type="cite">
<DD><FONT face="Arial, Helvetica" size=2>Yes Nick, and under our laws in
1850, black folks could be held as slaves. The point is professor,
that it is high time the rights the rest of us enjoy are extended to
today's disenfranchised: the unborn. How disappointing to see you
on the wrong side of history this time. Would you have
rationalized the Dred Scott decision in its day?<BR></FONT>
<DD><BR>
<DD><FONT face="Arial, Helvetica" size=2>Tragic.<BR></FONT>
<DD><BR>
<DD><FONT face="Arial, Helvetica" size=2>-T</FONT>
<DL>
<DD>----- Original Message -----
<DD>From: <A href="mailto:ngier@uidaho.edu">Nick Gier</A>
<DD>To: <A href="mailto:tonytime@clearwire.net">Tony</A>
<DD>Sent: Wednesday, January 24, 2007 9:31 AM
<DD>Subject: Re: [Vision2020] One More "Killer" Released Because of
DNA<BR>
<DD>Greetings:<BR>
<DD>Under our laws the crime of murder can happen only against moral
and legal persons. Our religious, moral, and legal tradition
does not recognize first and second trimester fetuses as
persons. Once again I provide the link for my essay on abortion:
<A href="http://www.class.uidaho.edu/ngier/abortion.htm"
eudora="autourl">www.class.uidaho.edu/ngier/abortion.htm</A>.
<DD>Fetuses are of course biological human beings from conception on,
but so are thousands of other animal species. As a vegetarian
I'm quite willing to shift to a consistent pro-life position, but I
believe that most people are not willing to do this. The moral
ball is in their court, and it's their serve.<BR>
<DD>Veggie Burgers Forever!<BR>
<DD>Nick Gier<BR>
<DD>At 09:22 AM 1/24/2007, you wrote:
<BLOCKQUOTE class=cite cite="" type="cite">
<DD>Nick, I was heartened to see you change your mind with regard to
abortion. You are absolutely correct that the state should not be in
the business of premeditated murder, especially in the case of those
who are innocent in EVERY case. It is such a joy to see reason and
compassion prevail. Best, -T ----- Original Message
----- From: <nickgier@adelphia.net> To:
<vision2020@moscow.com> Sent: Wednesday, January 24, 2007 8:57
AM Subject: [Vision2020] One More "Killer" Released Because of DNA
> Greetings: > > Fortunately, most DNA exonerations are
happening with prisoners who are > still alive. The real
injustice, however, is those, now over 100, who > were executed
before the tests could be done. > > The state should not be in
the business of premeditated murder, especially > if it cannot be
sure of that its victims are guilty. > > Nick Gier > >
January 24, 2007, NY Times > With DNA From Exhumed Body, Man
Finally Wins Freedom > By FERNANDA SANTOS > > AUBURN, N.Y.,
Jan. 23 — Roy Brown, who spent 15 yeears in prison on a > murder
conviction and uncovered evidence while there that linked another
> man to the crime, was released from prison on Tuesday after DNA
tests on > the other man’s exhumed body matched saliva on a
nightshirt at the crime > scene. > > After 15 years behind
bars, Mr. Brown stepped out of court into a light > snowfall and
gently pushed his way through a cluster of relatives who vied >
for his attention. The reception was fine, he said, but he is too
sick > with liver disease to stand on his feet for long. >
> “Changes have got to be made, man,” Mr. Brown said later at
a lawyer’s > office across the street, answering questions in a
monotone as he rested > awkwardly in a black swivel chair.
“They say the wheels of justice move > slowly, but you know
what? The wheels of justice are flat.” > > Mr. Brown, 46, is
the eighth person in New York State exonerated through > DNA
evidence in the past 13 months, more than in any other state during
> the same period. > > The DNA tests that freed him
confirmed the results of his own jailhouse > investigation, in
which he discovered documents that incriminated Barry > Bench, a
volunteer firefighter, in the murder of Sabina Kulakowski, 49, a
> social worker who had lived with Mr. Bench’s brother until
months before > her death. Earlier DNA tests conducted by Mr.
Brown’s lawyers linked Mr. > Bench’s daughter, Katherine
Eckstadt, to the genetic code lifted from the > saliva on Ms.
Kulakowski’s nightshirt. > >
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<DD>"Truth is the summit of being; justice is the application of it to
human affairs."
<DD>--Ralph Waldo Emerson<BR>
<DD>"Abstract truth has no value unless it incarnates in human beings
who represent it, by proving their readiness to die for it."
<DD> --Mohandas Gandhi<BR>
<DD>"Modern physics has taught us that the nature of any system cannot
be discovered by dividing it into its component parts and studying
each part by itself. . . .We must keep our attention fixed on the
whole and on the interconnection between the parts. The same is true
of our intellectual life. It is impossible to make a clear cut between
science, religion, and art. The whole is never equal simply to the sum
of its various parts." --Ma<FONT size=1>x Planck<BR><BR></FONT>
<DD>Nicholas F. Gier
<DD>Professor Emeritus, Department of Philosophy, University of Idaho
<DD>1037 Colt Rd., Moscow, ID 83843
<DD><A href="http://users.adelphia.net/~nickgier/home.htm"
eudora="autourl">http://users.adelphia.net/~nickgier/home.htm</A>
<DD>208-882-9212/FAX 885-8950
<DD>President, Idaho Federation of Teachers, AFL-CIO
<DD><A href="http://users.adelphia.net/~nickgier/ift.htm"
eudora="autourl">http://users.adelphia.net/~nickgier/ift.htm</A></DD></DL></DD></BLOCKQUOTE></DD></DL><BR>
<DD>"Truth is the summit of being; justice is the application of it to human
affairs."<BR>
<DD>--Ralph Waldo Emerson<BR><BR>
<DD>"Abstract truth has no value unless it incarnates in human beings who
represent it, by proving their readiness to die for it."<BR>
<DD> --Mohandas Gandhi<BR><BR>
<DD>"Modern physics has taught us that the nature of any system cannot be
discovered by dividing it into its component parts and studying each part by
itself. . . .We must keep our attention fixed on the whole and on the
interconnection between the parts. The same is true of our intellectual
life. It is impossible to make a clear cut between science, religion, and
art. The whole is never equal simply to the sum of its various parts."
--Ma<FONT size=1>x Planck<BR><BR></FONT>
<DD>Nicholas F. Gier<BR>
<DD>Professor Emeritus, Department of Philosophy, University of Idaho<BR>
<DD>1037 Colt Rd., Moscow, ID 83843<BR>
<DD><A href="http://users.adelphia.net/~nickgier/home.htm"
eudora="autourl">http://users.adelphia.net/~nickgier/home.htm</A><BR>
<DD>208-882-9212/FAX 885-8950<BR>
<DD>President, Idaho Federation of Teachers, AFL-CIO<BR>
<DD><A href="http://users.adelphia.net/~nickgier/ift.htm"
eudora="autourl">http://users.adelphia.net/~nickgier/ift.htm</A><BR><BR>
<HR>
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href="mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com"
eudora="autourl">mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com</A><BR>
<DD>=======================================================<BR></DD></BLOCKQUOTE><X-SIGSEP>
<P></X-SIGSEP>
<DL></DL><FONT size=2>"Truth is the summit of being; justice is the
application of it to human affairs."<BR>--Ralph Waldo Emerson<BR><BR>"Abstract
truth has no value unless it incarnates in human beings who represent it, by
proving their readiness to die for it."<BR> --Mohandas
Gandhi<BR><BR>"Modern physics has taught us that the nature of any system
cannot be discovered by dividing it into its component parts and studying each
part by itself. . . .We must keep our attention fixed on the whole and on the
interconnection between the parts. The same is true of our intellectual life.
It is impossible to make a clear cut between science, religion, and art. The
whole is never equal simply to the sum of its various parts." --Ma</FONT><FONT
size=1>x Planck<BR><BR></FONT>Nicholas F. Gier<BR>Professor Emeritus,
Department of Philosophy, University of Idaho<BR>1037 Colt Rd., Moscow, ID
83843<BR><A href="http://users.adelphia.net/~nickgier/home.htm"
eudora="autourl">http://users.adelphia.net/~nickgier/home.htm<BR></A>208-882-9212/FAX
885-8950<BR>President, Idaho Federation of Teachers, AFL-CIO<BR><A
href="http://users.adelphia.net/~nickgier/ift.htm"
eudora="autourl">http://users.adelphia.net/~nickgier/ift.htm<BR><BR></A>
<P>
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