---------- Forwarded message ----------<br><span class="gmail_quote">From: <b class="gmail_sendername"><a href="mailto:Tbertruss@aol.com">Tbertruss@aol.com</a></b> <<a href="mailto:Tbertruss@aol.com">Tbertruss@aol.com</a>
><br>Date: Jul 1, 2006 11:57 AM<br>Subject: Amazonian Goddesses Do Battle:New Version<br>To: <a href="mailto:starbliss@gmail.com">starbliss@gmail.com</a><br><br></span><font face="arial,helvetica"><font lang="0" face="Arial" size="2">
Mike:<br><br>I am again asking you to explain why you complained about the "<span class="" id="st" name="st">Amazonian</span> <span class="" id="st" name="st">Goddesses</span> ..." post from March 2003, if you will, based on my explication of this post's content in comments below. What I wish is for an intellectually competent reply responding with integrity to the ideas contained in the post I authored that you decided to dismiss and complain about on the public Vision2020 list, with no, it appears, intention to seriously engage in substantive discussion of the ideas my post presented.
<br><br>Why make such a powerful negative statement regarding someone's ideas on a public list serve, then refuse to engage in further substantive discussion? This strikes me as disingenuous and rude. <br><br>One issue that glares out rather obviously, is that while you implied I was inappropriately attacking a religious group, you appeard to ignore the fact that I was not attacking Goddess worshiping female based religion. I was in fact attempting to defend such a religious position against a male dominated female subjugating patriarchal religious ideology, that has suppressed female oriented religious ideology throughout its history.
<br><br>Thus I was defending a certain religious ideology against attacks against it! <br><br><span class="" id="st" name="st">Do</span> you approve of the suppression of Goddess worshiping female oriented religion by patriarchal male dominated Christianity?
<br><br>You asserted "I was offended by your characterizations, finger-pointing, and labeling ..." in your negative response on Vision2020 that is at the bottom in whole. You also stated recently you thought the post was a personal attack. I don't like personal attacks on Vision2020, and I
<span class="" id="st" name="st">do</span> not believe I engaged in this conduct in this post. <br><br>Who <span class="" id="st" name="st">do</span> I attack personally in this post? Doug Jones? I merely make reference to one of his points about his ideology regarding the equality of men and women. I
<span class="" id="st" name="st">do</span> not see this as a personal attack. I mention Don Kaag, because I made a point that was referring to another discussion Kaag and I had on Vision2020. There is no personal attack against Don Kaag.
<br><br>Commenting on Vision2020 that Doug Wilson or Donovan Arnold is fat, or Dale Courtney does a comb over of his bald spot, are personalized attacks. These sorts of attacks have occurred often by some of the most prolific Vision2020 list members, yet I
<span class="" id="st" name="st">do</span> not recall you once taking issue with these individuals for their personalized attacks on the Vision2020 list, attacks that have been ongoing for years! <br><br>Everything else in the post below I regard as addressing issues in the realm of ideas. Yes, I
<span class="" id="st" name="st">do</span> make some pointed comments about the history of violence regarding Christianity (some think the war in Iraq is a new "Crusade" against Islam, so this topic is hardly irrelevant to important current events that were/are discussed often on Vision2020), and the connection between aggressive "warrior" sports and preparing males for warfare: both of these topics are defendable and can be discussed in the realm of ideas: anyone with the slightest knowledge of modern feminist theory understands the promotion of male dominance by educating males (via warrior sports) to use physical force in their conduct, and discouraging females from acquiring these physical skills of self defense and/or aggression.
<br><br> I go out of my way to point out in this post that I am not singling out Christianity for its historical connection to the use of violence to promote its ideology and agenda, when I assert that all major ideologies use violence to promote their beliefs. So the argument I was unfairly targeting Christianity to the exclusion of other ideologies is false.
<br><br>I fail to understand what you mean by "finger pointing and labeling" in the context of this post. If I make a connection between a male dominated/female subjugating ideology promoting warrior sports for the males but not the females raised in this ideology, how is this "finger pointing and labeling?" It is an analysis of how the ideology functions. I think it is apparent I was suggesting a defense of women's rights to be aggressive and physical like men, and play sports like men
<span class="" id="st" name="st">do</span>, if they wish, even in school sports programs, and not be subjugated by men, with what was meant to be a playful fantasy of <span class="" id="st" name="st">Amazonian</span> women doing competent
<span class="" id="st" name="st">battle</span> against the Logos school boys in sports. As if school sports competitions are some sort of improper topic? <br><br>I received positive responses from women list serve members to this post on "
<span class="" id="st" name="st">Amazonian</span> <span class="" id="st" name="st">Goddesses</span>" who understood what I was getting at, and applauded.<br><br>I can understand someone claiming the post wanders, with the ending suddenly introducing a plea for pacifism, but this is not the critique you made.
<br><br>Ted Moffett<br><br><br>
<p align="center"><b>[Vision2020] <span class="" id="st" name="st">Amazonian</span> <span class="" id="st" name="st">Goddesses</span> <span class="" id="st" name="st">Do</span> <span class="" id="st" name="st">Battle</span>
! <br><br>
<p align="left">Ted Moffett <br><br></p></b><a onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)" href="mailto:ted_moffett%40hotmail.com" target="_blank">ted_moffett@hotmail.com </a><br><i>Wed, 12 Mar 2003 03:58:56 +0000
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[ author ]</a> All:<br><br>The very suggestion that Trinitarians' would model their sports programs on <br>the government school regulations mandating women's sports is unthinkable. <br>After all, "equality denies difference," to quote Doug Jones, and
<br>Trinitarians' clearly think men and women are different in ways that mandate <br>they not be given equal treatment, both in chest exposure and exposure to <br>the rigors of sports.<br><br>I would love to match the buffed and trained female "
<span class="" id="st" name="st">amazonian</span>" children of <br>gay Goddess worshiping feminist female parents (Don Kaag take note) in <br><span class="" id="st" name="st">battle</span> against the Trinitarian boys. Who cares about facts and reason,
<br>let's settle this in <span class="" id="st" name="st">battle</span>, and let children and youth fight to promote our <br>cause! Surely I jest, but after all, is this not how the dominant <br>ideologies of the world have spread their beliefs throughout history?
<br><br>Let's not be so naive as to think that the violence of sports for male youth <br>has no connection to preparation for warfare.<br><br>No one should blink an eye at the endorsement of warrior sports for the <br>
males being raised in a fundamentalist Christian tradition. Christianity <br>has been spread by the sword when it could not succeed by "peaceful" means <br>to convert the natives. This is a fact of history that of course will be
<br>denied and put through the spin filters of those wishing to place <br>Christianity in a more favorable light.<br><br>But I don't mean to pick on Christianity here, though it is the dominant <br>religion of our country. All MAJOR ideologies use violence to promote their
<br>beliefs. If someone can provide an counter example, I would be grateful. <br>In anticipation of exceptions I will comment that sadly the ideology of <br>pacifism is a NOT a major ideology in our world, nor has it ever been.
<br><br>There is still time for pacifism to become a dominant ideology before the <br>prevalent attitude of the use of violence to settle conflict leads to <br>technological and scientific based warfare that could lead to the extinction
<br>of the human race or to a result that will leave the survivors wishing they <br>were extinct.<br><br>Ted Moffett<br><br>
<p align="center"><b>[Vision2020] <span class="" id="st" name="st">Amazonian</span> <span class="" id="st" name="st">Goddesses</span> <span class="" id="st" name="st">Do</span> <span class="" id="st" name="st">Battle</span>
! <br><br>
<p align="left">Mike Curley <br><br></p></b><a onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)" href="mailto:curley%40turbonet.com" target="_blank">curley@turbonet.com </a><br><i>Wed, 12 Mar 2003 21:34:16 -0800</i>
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[ author ]</a> <color><param>0100,0100,0100</param>Ted: <br><br>I thought your original attack of a religious group was <br>inappropriate on this list regardless of how much I might <br>disagree with the philosophy or practices of the religious
<br>group. I was offended by your characterizations, finger- <br>pointing, and labeling as I would have been had you <br>attacked my Jewish, atheist, Muslim, agnostic, Buddhist, <br>or other (non-"fundamentalist") Christian friends. This is
<br>indeed a public list, but I don't think that means that <br>anyone you want to criticize, and any way you want to <br>criticize them, is fair game. However, since no one ever <br>seems to want to take the continuing religious philosophy
<br>discussions off list, I would just ask one thing. Please <br>retain the "subject" thread in continuing posts (<span class="" id="st" name="st">amazonian</span> <br><span class="" id="st" name="st">goddesses
</span>) so that the multitude of us who want can <br>readily identify and delete the messages. Thank you. <br>
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