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<DIV>Funny that I crossed in the mail with Gary on this one.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Let me say that I do not disagree with Mr. Sharp on the huge number of
folks, proportionately, who get sentenced to death and choose life in prison
over death. I think that is an accurate statement, regardless of whether
the real numbers may be 99 % or 95 %. I have known a number of convicted
murderers who instructed their attorneys not to appeal the death sentence, but
then reconsidered and sought to avoid the death sentence and not just the guilty
verdict. </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>However, I would question the logic that concludes that because people fear
death and would choose LWOP over execution, (if they could), that therefore the
death penalty has a significant deterrent effect. For the most part, I
think that those thoughts about preferring LWOP to execution only occur after
the person has been caught. </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Bruce Livingston</DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=jampot@adelphia.net href="mailto:jampot@adelphia.net">g. crabtree</A>
</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A title=joekc@adelphia.net
href="mailto:joekc@adelphia.net">Joe Campbell</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Cc:</B> <A title=vision2020@moscow.com
href="mailto:vision2020@moscow.com">vision2020</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Thursday, October 19, 2006 5:46
PM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [Vision2020] Duncan plea
deal</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Joe, thank you for the clarification. I will
readily concede that the single statistic does not in and of itself totally
support the conclusion. I obviously excerpted the quote from a larger work
and, perhaps, should have excised the conclusion or included the entire
argument. Either way, to throw Mr. Sharp under the bus as a charlatan
because of my imprecision is to do him a serious disservice. A cursory look at
his bio/CV reveals that he is indeed extremely knowledgeable in his field.
This combined with the fact that you do not dispute the pertinent
statistic causes me to disregard your charge on the appeal to authority
fallacy.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Mr. Sharp's scholarship and my lack of logical
thinking aside, lets return to your original premise "A long life in
prison is far worse than a short death." You've done a masterful job of tap
dancing on my meager reasons for doubting your claim. Now how about you take
on the more difficult task of providing some evidence to support why it is
that you believe that 98.8% of inmates sentenced to death fight to remain
alive if your contention is correct? What is it that you base your
assertion on?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>gc</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>From: "Joe Campbell" <</FONT><A
href="mailto:joekc@adelphia.net"><FONT face=Arial
size=2>joekc@adelphia.net</FONT></A><FONT face=Arial size=2>></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>To: "g. crabtree" <</FONT><A
href="mailto:jampot@adelphia.net"><FONT face=Arial
size=2>jampot@adelphia.net</FONT></A><FONT face=Arial size=2>></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Cc: "Pat Kraut" <</FONT><A
href="mailto:pkraut@moscow.com"><FONT face=Arial
size=2>pkraut@moscow.com</FONT></A><FONT face=Arial size=2>>; "vision2020"
<</FONT><A href="mailto:vision2020@moscow.com"><FONT face=Arial
size=2>vision2020@moscow.com</FONT></A><FONT face=Arial
size=2>></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Sent: Thursday, October 19, 2006 9:03
AM</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Duncan plea
deal</FONT></DIV></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial><BR><FONT size=2></FONT></FONT></DIV><FONT face=Arial
size=2>> Dear Gary,<BR>> <BR>> Let me try to make the point more
clearly.<BR>> <BR>> Your "expert" said: "Of the 7300 inmates sentenced
to death since 1973, 85, <BR>> or 1.2% have waived remaining appeals and
been executed. 98.8% have not <BR>> waived appeals. The evidence is
overwhelming that murderers would rather <BR>> live on death row than
die."<BR>> <BR>> Here is the argument:<BR>> 1. 98.8% of inmates
sentenced to death since 1973 have not waived appeals.<BR>> 2. Therefore,
murderers would rather live on death row than die.<BR>> <BR>> How
exactly does (1) support (2)? This is an invalid argument since conclusion (2)
makes speculative claims about the will to live of murderers whereas premise
(1) merely reports the percentage of folks who have and have not waved
appeals. <BR>> <BR>> The content of the conclusion is substantially
different from the content of the premise. No social scientist worth his salt
would be so bold as to draw such a speculative conclusion based on such
unrelated "facts." Your "expert" is no expert at all. Thus, you are guilty of
the fallacy of appeal to authority.<BR>> <BR>> Does this make sense
now?<BR>> <BR>> --<BR>> Joe Campbell<BR>> <BR>> ---- "g.
crabtree" <</FONT><A href="mailto:jampot@adelphia.net"><FONT face=Arial
size=2>jampot@adelphia.net</FONT></A><FONT face=Arial size=2>> wrote:
<BR>> <BR>> =============<BR>> Well so much for the reasoned
response. What I'm not finding in the usual <BR>> reply is anything
to support your original contention. You seem to object to <BR>> any facts
presented with no rational explanation. You style yourself an <BR>> expert
and then present no expertise. You bluster and blather and attempt to <BR>>
shift the discussion to different ground presumably because you find it
<BR>> difficult, perhaps impossible to make your case. I guess I'll just
have to <BR>> assume that you have nothing to back up your original
assertion and that <BR>> this is the very best you can do. How surprising.
I guess it's time to let <BR>> this sorry topic die. (after your
disjointed, wounded, and yet strangely <BR>> self congratulatory, reply of
course.)<BR>> <BR>> gc<BR>> From: "Joe Campbell" <</FONT><A
href="mailto:joekc@adelphia.net"><FONT face=Arial
size=2>joekc@adelphia.net</FONT></A><FONT face=Arial size=2>><BR>> To:
"g. crabtree" <</FONT><A href="mailto:jampot@adelphia.net"><FONT face=Arial
size=2>jampot@adelphia.net</FONT></A><FONT face=Arial size=2>><BR>> Cc:
"Pat Kraut" <</FONT><A href="mailto:pkraut@moscow.com"><FONT face=Arial
size=2>pkraut@moscow.com</FONT></A><FONT face=Arial size=2>>; "vision2020"
<</FONT><A href="mailto:vision2020@moscow.com"><FONT face=Arial
size=2>vision2020@moscow.com</FONT></A><FONT face=Arial size=2>><BR>>
Sent: Wednesday, October 18, 2006 4:21 PM<BR>> Subject: Re: [Vision2020]
Duncan plea deal<BR>> <BR>> <BR>> Thank you, Locksmith Crabtree! The
recent cold has been getting me down, so <BR>> I much appreciate the large
dose of hot air coming from your direction!<BR>> <BR>> I did not dispute
the "facts" noted by your "expert." What I disputed was <BR>> his
opinionated conclusion and the suggestion that it followed from the <BR>>
"facts."<BR>> <BR>> Your "expert" said: "Of the 7300 inmates sentenced
to death since 1973, 85, <BR>> or 1.2% have waived remaining appeals and
been executed. 98.8% have not <BR>> waived appeals. The evidence is
overwhelming that murderers would rather <BR>> live on death row than
die."<BR>> <BR>> The facts do not support the conclusion; the inference
is hogwash. Believe <BR>> me, for I'm an expert! As you noted, I teach
logic in my day job! You seem <BR>> to be a bit selective in who you choose
to lable "expert," though, so it is <BR>> doubtful that this will impress
you. (The key factor appears to be that the <BR>> "expert" happens to agree
with you.)<BR>> <BR>> Suppose I say that (1) Mike Rogers claims that
Larry Craig cheats on his <BR>> wife and add that (2) Mike Rodges is an
expert who supports his views with <BR>> "facts." Can I pass this off as
evidence and argument, too?<BR>> <BR>> You need to tell me how it is
that your "expert" gets to his conclusion from <BR>> the scant facts that
you've presented. If you can do this, his expertise <BR>> won't matter, for
I know a good argument when I see it. Moreover, you'll <BR>> have convinced
me that your view IS supported by facts and inference. As it <BR>> is it
appears to be based on the false assumption that all of our problems <BR>>
will go away once we start killing more people.<BR>> <BR>> --<BR>>
Joe Campbell<BR>> <BR>> ---- "g. crabtree" <</FONT><A
href="mailto:jampot@adelphia.net"><FONT face=Arial
size=2>jampot@adelphia.net</FONT></A><FONT face=Arial size=2>>
wrote:<BR>> <BR>> =============<BR>> Professor Campbell, let me see
if I understand you correctly. You claim that <BR>> I have committed the
logical fallacy of appeal to authority and then provide <BR>> nothing to
backup your assertion. I would think that to make your charge <BR>> stick
you would have to A. Provide some evidence that Mr.Sharp is not <BR>>
knowledgeable on the topic being discussed or B. (and more importantly)
<BR>> that the statistics he cites are in error, Or C. That I am
misapplying Mr. <BR>> Sharp's expertise or statistics. Quoting an person
knowledgeable in the <BR>> field who is referencing verifiable statistics
is NOT a logical fallacy. <BR>> (You actually teach logic? As your "day
job?") It would seem that you've <BR>> achieved the enlightened state
of "I'm right and facts be damned." With <BR>> that in mind, I guess I
would enjoy seeing what you can come up with by way <BR>> of "neat quotes
in favor of your position." I would hope that they might <BR>> contain a
scrap of fact rather then the usual emotion and fallacious <BR>> statement
that has been characteristic of your previous responses. What <BR>>
empirical data or statistic can you provide to support your assertion that
<BR>> "A long life in prison is far worse than a short death?" What pearl
of <BR>> reason will you come up with to counter the pesky fact (in bold
below) that, <BR>> statistically, murderers prefer to be behind bars rather
then answering to <BR>> their Maker? I would have thought that as man who
pridefully proclaims "I <BR>> am an expert about KNOWLEDGE." you
should surely be able to set me straight <BR>> in short order.
Instead all I'm seeing is fallacy followed by mistake. I <BR>> look forward
to a reasoned response. Baring that, I guess I'll have to <BR>> settle for
your usual reply.<BR>> <BR>> gc<BR>> ----- Original Message -----
<BR>> From: "Joe Campbell" <</FONT><A
href="mailto:joekc@adelphia.net"><FONT face=Arial
size=2>joekc@adelphia.net</FONT></A><FONT face=Arial size=2>><BR>> To:
"g. crabtree" <</FONT><A href="mailto:jampot@adelphia.net"><FONT face=Arial
size=2>jampot@adelphia.net</FONT></A><FONT face=Arial size=2>><BR>> Cc:
"Pat Kraut" <</FONT><A href="mailto:pkraut@moscow.com"><FONT face=Arial
size=2>pkraut@moscow.com</FONT></A><FONT face=Arial size=2>>; "vision2020"
<</FONT><A href="mailto:vision2020@moscow.com"><FONT face=Arial
size=2>vision2020@moscow.com</FONT></A><FONT face=Arial size=2>><BR>>
Sent: Tuesday, October 17, 2006 8:12 PM<BR>> Subject: Re: [Vision2020]
Duncan plea deal<BR>> <BR>> <BR>>> Sorry for not responding to
your wonderful example of an appeal to <BR>>> authority earlier, Gary,
but I've been busy with my day job.<BR>>><BR>>> Here is my
response: Your comments below commit the fallacy of appeal to <BR>>>
authority. Do you really think that I can't find some neat quotes on the
<BR>>> web in favor of my position?<BR>>><BR>>>
--<BR>>> Joe Campbell<BR>>><BR>>> ---- "g. crabtree"
<</FONT><A href="mailto:jampot@adelphia.net"><FONT face=Arial
size=2>jampot@adelphia.net</FONT></A><FONT face=Arial size=2>>
wrote:<BR>>><BR>>> =============<BR>>> Actually Joe, if by
empirical you meant "derived from or guided by <BR>>> experience or
observation" I would have no choice but to disagree. I would <BR>>>
think that just about everyone who has given even the most fleeting
<BR>>> attention to the news for the last few years could cite five or
more <BR>>> instances of murderers fighting to avoid the death penalty
for every one <BR>>> that embraces that option. According to the folks
at DPINFO.COM (death <BR>>> penalty information) what appears to be an
unbiased clearinghouse for this <BR>>> type of
information.<BR>>><BR>>> "At every level of the criminal justice
process, virtually all criminals <BR>>> do everything they can to lessen
possible punishments. I estimate that <BR>>> less than 1% of all
convicted capital murderers request a death sentence <BR>>> in the
punishment phase of their trial. The apprehended criminals' desire
<BR>>> for lesser punishments is overwhelming and
unchallenged.<BR>>><BR>>>Of the 7300 inmates sentenced to death
since 1973, 85, or 1.2% have waived <BR>>>remaining appeals and been
executed. 98.8% have not waived appeals. The <BR>>>evidence
is overwhelming that murderers would rather live on death row than
<BR>>>die. Why? The survival effect -- life is preferred
over death and death <BR>>>is feared more than life. Even on death
row, that is the rule." <BR>>>Dudley Sharp, Resource Director, Justice
For All<BR>>><BR>>> With this in mind, I would contend that your
assertion that "It is not as <BR>>> if your view has any more empirical
support than mine!" is, once again, <BR>>>
wrong.<BR>>><BR>>> gc<BR>>><BR>>><BR>>> -----
Original Message ----- <BR>>> From: "Joe Campbell" <</FONT><A
href="mailto:joekc@adelphia.net"><FONT face=Arial
size=2>joekc@adelphia.net</FONT></A><FONT face=Arial size=2>><BR>>>
To: "g. crabtree" <</FONT><A href="mailto:jampot@adelphia.net"><FONT
face=Arial size=2>jampot@adelphia.net</FONT></A><FONT face=Arial
size=2>><BR>>> Cc: "Pat Kraut" <</FONT><A
href="mailto:pkraut@moscow.com"><FONT face=Arial
size=2>pkraut@moscow.com</FONT></A><FONT face=Arial size=2>>; "vision2020"
<</FONT><A href="mailto:vision2020@moscow.com"><FONT face=Arial
size=2>vision2020@moscow.com</FONT></A><FONT face=Arial
size=2>><BR>>> Sent: Sunday, October 15, 2006 7:50 AM<BR>>>
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Duncan plea
deal<BR>>><BR>>><BR>>>>
Gary,<BR>>>><BR>>>> It is not as if your view has any more
empirical support than mine!<BR>>>><BR>>>>
--<BR>>>> Joe Campbell<BR>>>><BR>>>> ---- "g.
crabtree" <</FONT><A href="mailto:jampot@adelphia.net"><FONT face=Arial
size=2>jampot@adelphia.net</FONT></A><FONT face=Arial size=2>>
wrote:<BR>>>><BR>>>> =============<BR>>>> Reason
#3: A long life in prison is far worse than a short
death.<BR>>>><BR>>>> If this is truly the case, why do you
suppose so many vermin such as <BR>>>> Duncan<BR>>>>
prefer/fight for the life sentence? For the most part this, is true of
<BR>>>> all<BR>>>> convicted killers. What do you base your
contention on? I can't imagine <BR>>>> that<BR>>>> it's even
how you, personally, would feel should you ever be in a
similar<BR>>>> circumstance. (not that you would, of course) This
"long life in prison <BR>>>> is<BR>>>> worse than death."
mantra seems to be bandied about as a truism with<BR>>>> precious
little supporting evidence. In fact, most evidence points the <BR>>>>
other<BR>>>> way.<BR>>>><BR>>>> gc<BR>>>>
From: "Joe Campbell" <</FONT><A href="mailto:joekc@adelphia.net"><FONT
face=Arial size=2>joekc@adelphia.net</FONT></A><FONT face=Arial
size=2>><BR>>>> To: "Pat Kraut" <</FONT><A
href="mailto:pkraut@moscow.com"><FONT face=Arial
size=2>pkraut@moscow.com</FONT></A><FONT face=Arial
size=2>><BR>>>> Cc: "vision2020" <</FONT><A
href="mailto:vision2020@moscow.com"><FONT face=Arial
size=2>vision2020@moscow.com</FONT></A><FONT face=Arial
size=2>><BR>>>> Sent: Saturday, October 14, 2006 6:33
AM<BR>>>> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Duncan plea
deal<BR>>>><BR>>>><BR>>>>>
Pat,<BR>>>>><BR>>>>> Unfortunately, the fact is that
you and I will pay more if he is<BR>>>>> (eventually) put to
death. Yet another reason not to have the death<BR>>>>>
penalty.<BR>>>>><BR>>>>> Reason #3: .A long life in
prison is far worse than a short death<BR>>>>><BR>>>>>
--<BR>>>>> Joe Campbell<BR>>>>><BR>>>>>
---- Pat Kraut <</FONT><A href="mailto:pkraut@moscow.com"><FONT face=Arial
size=2>pkraut@moscow.com</FONT></A><FONT face=Arial size=2>>
wrote:<BR>>>>><BR>>>>>
=============<BR>>>>> But why do I have to pay for him to continue
to have life in any
form?<BR>>>>><BR>>>>><BR>>>>><BR>>>>><BR>>>>>
If we do discover a complete theory..of everything...we shall
all,<BR>>>>> philosophers, scientists and just ordinary
people,<BR>>>>> be able to take part in the discussion of why it
is that we and the<BR>>>>> universe<BR>>>>> exist if
we find the answer to that,<BR>>>>> it would be the ultimate
triumph of human reason...for then we would <BR>>>>>
know<BR>>>>> the mind of God.<BR>>>>> Stephen
Hawking<BR>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- <BR>>>>>
From: <</FONT><A href="mailto:whayman@adelphia.net"><FONT face=Arial
size=2>whayman@adelphia.net</FONT></A><FONT face=Arial
size=2>><BR>>>>> To: "Andreas Schou" <</FONT><A
href="mailto:ophite@gmail.com"><FONT face=Arial
size=2>ophite@gmail.com</FONT></A><FONT face=Arial
size=2>><BR>>>>> Cc: <</FONT><A
href="mailto:vision2020@moscow.com"><FONT face=Arial
size=2>vision2020@moscow.com</FONT></A><FONT face=Arial
size=2>><BR>>>>> Sent: Friday, October 13, 2006 3:09
PM<BR>>>>> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Duncan plea
deal<BR>>>>><BR>>>>><BR>>>>> Hello
all,<BR>>>>><BR>>>>> I would agree with anyone that
Duncan tests the limits much more than <BR>>>>>
even<BR>>>>> more than Malvo in the DC area. What Duncan
apparently did lies outside<BR>>>>> the<BR>>>>> human
scope of sympathy. But even within this absolutely and <BR>>>>>
disgustingly<BR>>>>> twisted psychopathic scenario, I still cannot
advocate a penalty of <BR>>>>> death<BR>>>>> for
anyone. Duncan included.<BR>>>>><BR>>>>> Killing, as
we all know, brings back no one. The argument of the death<BR>>>>>
penalty as resolution and closure I find closer to vengeance than
<BR>>>>> justice.<BR>>>>><BR>>>>> Please
don't take me wrong; I don't think rehab etc. is the issue in
<BR>>>>> this<BR>>>>> case. I do hope that the rest of
his life is spent anonymously and <BR>>>>>
ignobly<BR>>>>>
incarcerated.<BR>>>>><BR>>>>> Warren
Hayman<BR>>>>><BR>>>>>
=======================================================<BR>>>>>
List services made available by First Step Internet,<BR>>>>>
serving the communities of the Palouse since
1994.<BR>>>>>
</FONT><A href="http://www.fsr.net"><FONT face=Arial
size=2>http://www.fsr.net</FONT></A><BR><FONT face=Arial
size=2>>>>>
</FONT><A href="mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com"><FONT face=Arial
size=2>mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com</FONT></A><BR><FONT face=Arial
size=2>>>>>
=======================================================<BR>>>>><BR>>>>>
=======================================================<BR>>>>>
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serving the communities of the Palouse since
1994.<BR>>>>>
</FONT><A href="http://www.fsr.net"><FONT face=Arial
size=2>http://www.fsr.net</FONT></A><BR><FONT face=Arial
size=2>>>>>
</FONT><A href="mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com"><FONT face=Arial
size=2>mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com</FONT></A><BR><FONT face=Arial
size=2>>>>>
=======================================================<BR>>>>><BR>>>>>
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serving the communities of the Palouse since
1994.<BR>>>>>
</FONT><A href="http://www.fsr.net"><FONT face=Arial
size=2>http://www.fsr.net</FONT></A><BR><FONT face=Arial
size=2>>>>>
</FONT><A href="mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com"><FONT face=Arial
size=2>mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com</FONT></A><BR><FONT face=Arial
size=2>>>>>
=======================================================<BR>>>>><BR>>>><BR>>>><BR>>>><BR>>>><BR>>><BR>>
<BR>> <BR>> <BR>></FONT>
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