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<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Joe, thank you for the clarification. I will
readily concede that the single statistic does not in and of itself totally
support the conclusion. I obviously excerpted the quote from a larger work and,
perhaps, should have excised the conclusion or included the entire argument.
Either way, to throw Mr. Sharp under the bus as a charlatan because of my
imprecision is to do him a serious disservice. A cursory look at his bio/CV
reveals that he is indeed extremely knowledgeable in his field. This combined
with the fact that you do not dispute the pertinent statistic causes me to
disregard your charge on the appeal to authority fallacy.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Mr. Sharp's scholarship and my lack of logical
thinking aside, lets return to your original premise "A long life in prison
is far worse than a short death." You've done a masterful job of tap dancing on
my meager reasons for doubting your claim. Now how about you take on the more
difficult task of providing some evidence to support why it is that you believe
that 98.8% of inmates sentenced to death fight to remain alive if your
contention is correct? What is it that you base your assertion
on?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>gc</FONT></DIV>
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<DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>From: "Joe Campbell" <</FONT><A
href="mailto:joekc@adelphia.net"><FONT face=Arial
size=2>joekc@adelphia.net</FONT></A><FONT face=Arial size=2>></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>To: "g. crabtree" <</FONT><A
href="mailto:jampot@adelphia.net"><FONT face=Arial
size=2>jampot@adelphia.net</FONT></A><FONT face=Arial size=2>></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Cc: "Pat Kraut" <</FONT><A
href="mailto:pkraut@moscow.com"><FONT face=Arial
size=2>pkraut@moscow.com</FONT></A><FONT face=Arial size=2>>; "vision2020"
<</FONT><A href="mailto:vision2020@moscow.com"><FONT face=Arial
size=2>vision2020@moscow.com</FONT></A><FONT face=Arial size=2>></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Sent: Thursday, October 19, 2006 9:03
AM</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Duncan plea
deal</FONT></DIV></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial><BR><FONT size=2></FONT></FONT></DIV><FONT face=Arial
size=2>> Dear Gary,<BR>> <BR>> Let me try to make the point more
clearly.<BR>> <BR>> Your "expert" said: "Of the 7300 inmates sentenced to
death since 1973, 85, <BR>> or 1.2% have waived remaining appeals and been
executed. 98.8% have not <BR>> waived appeals. The evidence is overwhelming
that murderers would rather <BR>> live on death row than die."<BR>>
<BR>> Here is the argument:<BR>> 1. 98.8% of inmates sentenced to death
since 1973 have not waived appeals.<BR>> 2. Therefore, murderers would rather
live on death row than die.<BR>> <BR>> How exactly does (1) support (2)?
This is an invalid argument since conclusion (2) makes speculative claims about
the will to live of murderers whereas premise (1) merely reports the percentage
of folks who have and have not waved appeals. <BR>> <BR>> The content of
the conclusion is substantially different from the content of the premise. No
social scientist worth his salt would be so bold as to draw such a speculative
conclusion based on such unrelated "facts." Your "expert" is no expert at all.
Thus, you are guilty of the fallacy of appeal to authority.<BR>> <BR>>
Does this make sense now?<BR>> <BR>> --<BR>> Joe Campbell<BR>>
<BR>> ---- "g. crabtree" <</FONT><A
href="mailto:jampot@adelphia.net"><FONT face=Arial
size=2>jampot@adelphia.net</FONT></A><FONT face=Arial size=2>> wrote:
<BR>> <BR>> =============<BR>> Well so much for the reasoned
response. What I'm not finding in the usual <BR>> reply is anything to
support your original contention. You seem to object to <BR>> any facts
presented with no rational explanation. You style yourself an <BR>> expert
and then present no expertise. You bluster and blather and attempt to <BR>>
shift the discussion to different ground presumably because you find it <BR>>
difficult, perhaps impossible to make your case. I guess I'll just have to
<BR>> assume that you have nothing to back up your original assertion and
that <BR>> this is the very best you can do. How surprising. I guess it's
time to let <BR>> this sorry topic die. (after your disjointed, wounded, and
yet strangely <BR>> self congratulatory, reply of course.)<BR>> <BR>>
gc<BR>> From: "Joe Campbell" <</FONT><A
href="mailto:joekc@adelphia.net"><FONT face=Arial
size=2>joekc@adelphia.net</FONT></A><FONT face=Arial size=2>><BR>> To: "g.
crabtree" <</FONT><A href="mailto:jampot@adelphia.net"><FONT face=Arial
size=2>jampot@adelphia.net</FONT></A><FONT face=Arial size=2>><BR>> Cc:
"Pat Kraut" <</FONT><A href="mailto:pkraut@moscow.com"><FONT face=Arial
size=2>pkraut@moscow.com</FONT></A><FONT face=Arial size=2>>; "vision2020"
<</FONT><A href="mailto:vision2020@moscow.com"><FONT face=Arial
size=2>vision2020@moscow.com</FONT></A><FONT face=Arial size=2>><BR>>
Sent: Wednesday, October 18, 2006 4:21 PM<BR>> Subject: Re: [Vision2020]
Duncan plea deal<BR>> <BR>> <BR>> Thank you, Locksmith Crabtree! The
recent cold has been getting me down, so <BR>> I much appreciate the large
dose of hot air coming from your direction!<BR>> <BR>> I did not dispute
the "facts" noted by your "expert." What I disputed was <BR>> his opinionated
conclusion and the suggestion that it followed from the <BR>>
"facts."<BR>> <BR>> Your "expert" said: "Of the 7300 inmates sentenced to
death since 1973, 85, <BR>> or 1.2% have waived remaining appeals and been
executed. 98.8% have not <BR>> waived appeals. The evidence is overwhelming
that murderers would rather <BR>> live on death row than die."<BR>>
<BR>> The facts do not support the conclusion; the inference is hogwash.
Believe <BR>> me, for I'm an expert! As you noted, I teach logic in my day
job! You seem <BR>> to be a bit selective in who you choose to lable
"expert," though, so it is <BR>> doubtful that this will impress you. (The
key factor appears to be that the <BR>> "expert" happens to agree with
you.)<BR>> <BR>> Suppose I say that (1) Mike Rogers claims that Larry
Craig cheats on his <BR>> wife and add that (2) Mike Rodges is an expert who
supports his views with <BR>> "facts." Can I pass this off as evidence and
argument, too?<BR>> <BR>> You need to tell me how it is that your "expert"
gets to his conclusion from <BR>> the scant facts that you've presented. If
you can do this, his expertise <BR>> won't matter, for I know a good argument
when I see it. Moreover, you'll <BR>> have convinced me that your view IS
supported by facts and inference. As it <BR>> is it appears to be based on
the false assumption that all of our problems <BR>> will go away once we
start killing more people.<BR>> <BR>> --<BR>> Joe Campbell<BR>>
<BR>> ---- "g. crabtree" <</FONT><A
href="mailto:jampot@adelphia.net"><FONT face=Arial
size=2>jampot@adelphia.net</FONT></A><FONT face=Arial size=2>> wrote:<BR>>
<BR>> =============<BR>> Professor Campbell, let me see if I understand
you correctly. You claim that <BR>> I have committed the logical fallacy of
appeal to authority and then provide <BR>> nothing to backup your assertion.
I would think that to make your charge <BR>> stick you would have to A.
Provide some evidence that Mr.Sharp is not <BR>> knowledgeable on the topic
being discussed or B. (and more importantly) <BR>> that the statistics
he cites are in error, Or C. That I am misapplying Mr. <BR>> Sharp's
expertise or statistics. Quoting an person knowledgeable in the <BR>> field
who is referencing verifiable statistics is NOT a logical fallacy. <BR>> (You
actually teach logic? As your "day job?") It would seem that you've <BR>>
achieved the enlightened state of "I'm right and facts be damned." With
<BR>> that in mind, I guess I would enjoy seeing what you can come up with by
way <BR>> of "neat quotes in favor of your position." I would hope that they
might <BR>> contain a scrap of fact rather then the usual emotion and
fallacious <BR>> statement that has been characteristic of your previous
responses. What <BR>> empirical data or statistic can you provide to support
your assertion that <BR>> "A long life in prison is far worse than a short
death?" What pearl of <BR>> reason will you come up with to counter the pesky
fact (in bold below) that, <BR>> statistically, murderers prefer to be behind
bars rather then answering to <BR>> their Maker? I would have thought that as
man who pridefully proclaims "I <BR>> am an expert about KNOWLEDGE."
you should surely be able to set me straight <BR>> in short order.
Instead all I'm seeing is fallacy followed by mistake. I <BR>> look forward
to a reasoned response. Baring that, I guess I'll have to <BR>> settle for
your usual reply.<BR>> <BR>> gc<BR>> ----- Original Message -----
<BR>> From: "Joe Campbell" <</FONT><A
href="mailto:joekc@adelphia.net"><FONT face=Arial
size=2>joekc@adelphia.net</FONT></A><FONT face=Arial size=2>><BR>> To: "g.
crabtree" <</FONT><A href="mailto:jampot@adelphia.net"><FONT face=Arial
size=2>jampot@adelphia.net</FONT></A><FONT face=Arial size=2>><BR>> Cc:
"Pat Kraut" <</FONT><A href="mailto:pkraut@moscow.com"><FONT face=Arial
size=2>pkraut@moscow.com</FONT></A><FONT face=Arial size=2>>; "vision2020"
<</FONT><A href="mailto:vision2020@moscow.com"><FONT face=Arial
size=2>vision2020@moscow.com</FONT></A><FONT face=Arial size=2>><BR>>
Sent: Tuesday, October 17, 2006 8:12 PM<BR>> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Duncan
plea deal<BR>> <BR>> <BR>>> Sorry for not responding to your
wonderful example of an appeal to <BR>>> authority earlier, Gary, but I've
been busy with my day job.<BR>>><BR>>> Here is my response: Your
comments below commit the fallacy of appeal to <BR>>> authority. Do you
really think that I can't find some neat quotes on the <BR>>> web in favor
of my position?<BR>>><BR>>> --<BR>>> Joe
Campbell<BR>>><BR>>> ---- "g. crabtree" <</FONT><A
href="mailto:jampot@adelphia.net"><FONT face=Arial
size=2>jampot@adelphia.net</FONT></A><FONT face=Arial size=2>>
wrote:<BR>>><BR>>> =============<BR>>> Actually Joe, if by
empirical you meant "derived from or guided by <BR>>> experience or
observation" I would have no choice but to disagree. I would <BR>>> think
that just about everyone who has given even the most fleeting <BR>>>
attention to the news for the last few years could cite five or more
<BR>>> instances of murderers fighting to avoid the death penalty for
every one <BR>>> that embraces that option. According to the folks at
DPINFO.COM (death <BR>>> penalty information) what appears to be an
unbiased clearinghouse for this <BR>>> type of
information.<BR>>><BR>>> "At every level of the criminal justice
process, virtually all criminals <BR>>> do everything they can to lessen
possible punishments. I estimate that <BR>>> less than 1% of all
convicted capital murderers request a death sentence <BR>>> in the
punishment phase of their trial. The apprehended criminals' desire
<BR>>> for lesser punishments is overwhelming and
unchallenged.<BR>>><BR>>>Of the 7300 inmates sentenced to death
since 1973, 85, or 1.2% have waived <BR>>>remaining appeals and been
executed. 98.8% have not waived appeals. The <BR>>>evidence is
overwhelming that murderers would rather live on death row than
<BR>>>die. Why? The survival effect -- life is preferred over
death and death <BR>>>is feared more than life. Even on death row,
that is the rule." <BR>>>Dudley Sharp, Resource Director, Justice For
All<BR>>><BR>>> With this in mind, I would contend that your
assertion that "It is not as <BR>>> if your view has any more empirical
support than mine!" is, once again, <BR>>> wrong.<BR>>><BR>>>
gc<BR>>><BR>>><BR>>> ----- Original Message ----- <BR>>>
From: "Joe Campbell" <</FONT><A href="mailto:joekc@adelphia.net"><FONT
face=Arial size=2>joekc@adelphia.net</FONT></A><FONT face=Arial
size=2>><BR>>> To: "g. crabtree" <</FONT><A
href="mailto:jampot@adelphia.net"><FONT face=Arial
size=2>jampot@adelphia.net</FONT></A><FONT face=Arial size=2>><BR>>>
Cc: "Pat Kraut" <</FONT><A href="mailto:pkraut@moscow.com"><FONT face=Arial
size=2>pkraut@moscow.com</FONT></A><FONT face=Arial size=2>>; "vision2020"
<</FONT><A href="mailto:vision2020@moscow.com"><FONT face=Arial
size=2>vision2020@moscow.com</FONT></A><FONT face=Arial size=2>><BR>>>
Sent: Sunday, October 15, 2006 7:50 AM<BR>>> Subject: Re: [Vision2020]
Duncan plea deal<BR>>><BR>>><BR>>>>
Gary,<BR>>>><BR>>>> It is not as if your view has any more
empirical support than mine!<BR>>>><BR>>>> --<BR>>>>
Joe Campbell<BR>>>><BR>>>> ---- "g. crabtree" <</FONT><A
href="mailto:jampot@adelphia.net"><FONT face=Arial
size=2>jampot@adelphia.net</FONT></A><FONT face=Arial size=2>>
wrote:<BR>>>><BR>>>> =============<BR>>>> Reason #3:
A long life in prison is far worse than a short
death.<BR>>>><BR>>>> If this is truly the case, why do you
suppose so many vermin such as <BR>>>> Duncan<BR>>>>
prefer/fight for the life sentence? For the most part this, is true of
<BR>>>> all<BR>>>> convicted killers. What do you base your
contention on? I can't imagine <BR>>>> that<BR>>>> it's even
how you, personally, would feel should you ever be in a similar<BR>>>>
circumstance. (not that you would, of course) This "long life in prison
<BR>>>> is<BR>>>> worse than death." mantra seems to be
bandied about as a truism with<BR>>>> precious little supporting
evidence. In fact, most evidence points the <BR>>>>
other<BR>>>> way.<BR>>>><BR>>>> gc<BR>>>>
From: "Joe Campbell" <</FONT><A href="mailto:joekc@adelphia.net"><FONT
face=Arial size=2>joekc@adelphia.net</FONT></A><FONT face=Arial
size=2>><BR>>>> To: "Pat Kraut" <</FONT><A
href="mailto:pkraut@moscow.com"><FONT face=Arial
size=2>pkraut@moscow.com</FONT></A><FONT face=Arial size=2>><BR>>>>
Cc: "vision2020" <</FONT><A href="mailto:vision2020@moscow.com"><FONT
face=Arial size=2>vision2020@moscow.com</FONT></A><FONT face=Arial
size=2>><BR>>>> Sent: Saturday, October 14, 2006 6:33
AM<BR>>>> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Duncan plea
deal<BR>>>><BR>>>><BR>>>>>
Pat,<BR>>>>><BR>>>>> Unfortunately, the fact is that you
and I will pay more if he is<BR>>>>> (eventually) put to death. Yet
another reason not to have the death<BR>>>>>
penalty.<BR>>>>><BR>>>>> Reason #3: .A long life in
prison is far worse than a short death<BR>>>>><BR>>>>>
--<BR>>>>> Joe Campbell<BR>>>>><BR>>>>> ----
Pat Kraut <</FONT><A href="mailto:pkraut@moscow.com"><FONT face=Arial
size=2>pkraut@moscow.com</FONT></A><FONT face=Arial size=2>>
wrote:<BR>>>>><BR>>>>> =============<BR>>>>>
But why do I have to pay for him to continue to have life in any
form?<BR>>>>><BR>>>>><BR>>>>><BR>>>>><BR>>>>>
If we do discover a complete theory..of everything...we shall
all,<BR>>>>> philosophers, scientists and just ordinary
people,<BR>>>>> be able to take part in the discussion of why it is
that we and the<BR>>>>> universe<BR>>>>> exist if we
find the answer to that,<BR>>>>> it would be the ultimate triumph of
human reason...for then we would <BR>>>>> know<BR>>>>>
the mind of God.<BR>>>>> Stephen Hawking<BR>>>>> -----
Original Message ----- <BR>>>>> From: <</FONT><A
href="mailto:whayman@adelphia.net"><FONT face=Arial
size=2>whayman@adelphia.net</FONT></A><FONT face=Arial
size=2>><BR>>>>> To: "Andreas Schou" <</FONT><A
href="mailto:ophite@gmail.com"><FONT face=Arial
size=2>ophite@gmail.com</FONT></A><FONT face=Arial
size=2>><BR>>>>> Cc: <</FONT><A
href="mailto:vision2020@moscow.com"><FONT face=Arial
size=2>vision2020@moscow.com</FONT></A><FONT face=Arial
size=2>><BR>>>>> Sent: Friday, October 13, 2006 3:09
PM<BR>>>>> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Duncan plea
deal<BR>>>>><BR>>>>><BR>>>>> Hello
all,<BR>>>>><BR>>>>> I would agree with anyone that
Duncan tests the limits much more than <BR>>>>>
even<BR>>>>> more than Malvo in the DC area. What Duncan apparently
did lies outside<BR>>>>> the<BR>>>>> human scope of
sympathy. But even within this absolutely and <BR>>>>>
disgustingly<BR>>>>> twisted psychopathic scenario, I still cannot
advocate a penalty of <BR>>>>> death<BR>>>>> for anyone.
Duncan included.<BR>>>>><BR>>>>> Killing, as we all
know, brings back no one. The argument of the death<BR>>>>> penalty
as resolution and closure I find closer to vengeance than <BR>>>>>
justice.<BR>>>>><BR>>>>> Please don't take me wrong; I
don't think rehab etc. is the issue in <BR>>>>>
this<BR>>>>> case. I do hope that the rest of his life is spent
anonymously and <BR>>>>> ignobly<BR>>>>>
incarcerated.<BR>>>>><BR>>>>> Warren
Hayman<BR>>>>><BR>>>>>
=======================================================<BR>>>>> List
services made available by First Step Internet,<BR>>>>> serving the
communities of the Palouse since
1994.<BR>>>>>
</FONT><A href="http://www.fsr.net"><FONT face=Arial
size=2>http://www.fsr.net</FONT></A><BR><FONT face=Arial
size=2>>>>>
</FONT><A href="mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com"><FONT face=Arial
size=2>mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com</FONT></A><BR><FONT face=Arial
size=2>>>>>
=======================================================<BR>>>>><BR>>>>>
=======================================================<BR>>>>> List
services made available by First Step Internet,<BR>>>>> serving the
communities of the Palouse since
1994.<BR>>>>>
</FONT><A href="http://www.fsr.net"><FONT face=Arial
size=2>http://www.fsr.net</FONT></A><BR><FONT face=Arial
size=2>>>>>
</FONT><A href="mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com"><FONT face=Arial
size=2>mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com</FONT></A><BR><FONT face=Arial
size=2>>>>>
=======================================================<BR>>>>><BR>>>>>
=======================================================<BR>>>>> List
services made available by First Step Internet,<BR>>>>> serving the
communities of the Palouse since
1994.<BR>>>>>
</FONT><A href="http://www.fsr.net"><FONT face=Arial
size=2>http://www.fsr.net</FONT></A><BR><FONT face=Arial
size=2>>>>>
</FONT><A href="mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com"><FONT face=Arial
size=2>mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com</FONT></A><BR><FONT face=Arial
size=2>>>>>
=======================================================<BR>>>>><BR>>>><BR>>>><BR>>>><BR>>>><BR>>><BR>>
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