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<DIV><FONT size=4>According to <A
href="http://www.boise-idaho-real-estate.com/">http://www.boise-idaho-real-estate.com/</A> the
average (not median as you used) home price in Boise is $128,500, not
$123,000. The average figure is based upon actual sales known to the
realtor members of the website cited. The median data you cite are
calculated from those mortgage companies who choose to give it (not all do,
especially banks which finance the higher end transactions) and is $125,767, not
$123,000, and may be out of date. Further, it is very interesting to see
the median home sales price in Boise according to the <EM>Money
Magazine</EM> source <A
href="http://money.cnn.com/magazines/moneymag/bplive/2006/snapshots/PL1608830.html">http://money.cnn.com/magazines/moneymag/bplive/2006/snapshots/PL1608830.html</A>
you cited is over $183,000. Why didn't you use this figure? Did you
shop for the lowest figure without regard for its accuracy? Perhaps you
are related to Doug Farris or Dale Courtney.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4>To be conservative, we'll use the $128,500 figure though
Googling brings up several website which claim higher amounts.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4>Conservatively, the buyer's share of the closing costs on a
$128,500 home sale exceed 3%. Hence the average closing cost exceeds
$3,840.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4>Hence the total amount of the transaction minimally is
$132,340.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4>Assuming the best case, that a buyer has the full 20% down
(generally not true of first time buyers now, or those buying on the contingency
of selling their current home) the amount to be financed is
$105,872.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4>A fixed interest rate 30 year mortgage at 6% then demands a
monthly mortgage payment of $635.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4>The property tax rate in Boise is approximately $17.00
per $1,000 of assessed value less $75,000. Therefore, that tax is
$909.50 per year assuming no LIDs or special assessments. This is $76.00
per month.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4>Plain vanilla property structure insurance (required by
lenders) for a $128,500 home in the Boise area with a $500 deductible is a
minimum $480 per year or $40 per month.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4>Average maintenance costs varies over time. For a long
term period, the most conservative estimate and that hyped by housing
constructors is 1.25% per year of the home's value or about $1,606 per year
for a $128,500 home. [My personal experience having owned several homes is
that it runs over 2% per year. Our current home has had a maintenance cost
of about 60% of its initial purchase price spread over 16 years.] See <A
href="http://www.doityourself.com/stry/maintenancecost">http://www.doityourself.com/stry/maintenancecost</A> for
a simple look at the issue, or ask long term homeowners about these
figures.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4>Hence, maintenance costs per month average a minimum $133 per
month for a $128,500 home.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4>Hence the average total monthly cost of home ownership in
Boise with the above conservative assumptions is:</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4><STRONG>635 + 76 + 40 + 133 = <FONT color=#0000ff
size=6>$884</FONT></STRONG></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4>Hence, the minimum average cost of a home in Boise assuming a
20% down is $884, not $700.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4>[If the <EM>Money Magazine</EM> figure of $183,000+ is used as
an average home sales price then the monthly cost of owning an average price
home is approximately $1,300.]</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4>However, if less than 20% is put down on a $128,500 home, more
is financed, there will be higher monthly mortgage payments. In addition,
mortgage insurance is then also required, thus adding about $80 per month to the
cost.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4><A
href="http://www.buyincomeproperties.com/artman/publish/Let_the_Market_Eliminate_Your_Private_Mortgage_Insurance.shtml">http://www.buyincomeproperties.com/artman/publish/Let_the_Market_Eliminate_Your_Private_Mortgage_Insurance.shtml</A></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4>Read your own words about research. Perhaps you were
unaware of the cost of structure insurance or the cost of maintenance,
particularly if you have never had the bitter-sweet experience of owning a
home. Homes have wear and tear which must be addressed right from the
first day of ownership; many times there are some unpleasant surprises.
The cost of maintaining a lawn and landscaping in a city is not trivial
either. If you do not maintain your home properly, you risk loss of your
insurance coverage, and then a possible default on your mortgage, depending on
its terms.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4></FONT><FONT size=4></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4>Assume the numbers you quote about new driver's license
applications are correct. They do not in themselves support your
conclusion that Californians are driving out native Moscow residents or that
native Moscow residents are leaving because of the cost of living or the lack of
employment opportunities.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4>First, many of those driver's license applications represent
applications from out of state higher education students and in some cases
members of their families who must apply for Idaho driver's licenses. See
<A
href="http://www.dmv.org/id-idaho/apply-license.php">http://www.dmv.org/id-idaho/apply-license.php</A>
These people are part of a naturally transient population, few will remain in
Moscow after their sojourn at the area's higher education institutions.
They will be part of the out-migration, but never were part of the native Moscow
population. Out-migration then depends in part on the enrollment figures
of the University of Idaho -- the more that come in, the more that will
eventually leave.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4>Secondly, you argue that native Moscow residents are leaving
on the basis of a small decline in the population of the entire Latah County --
a bait and switch fallacy. Perhaps it is an illusion, but in the 16+ years
we have been here, there has been a massive amount of new houses and apartment
units constructed and comparatively very few dwelling units demolished in
Moscow. Hence, it seems reasonable to assume that the population of Moscow
itself is not declining. See also <A
href="http://www.city-data.com/city/Moscow-Idaho.html">http://www.city-data.com/city/Moscow-Idaho.html</A> which
shows a 2.7% increase in population for the city over the last five
years.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4>Thirdly, many of the lower paying jobs in Moscow are filled by
transient students who glut the lower-skills employment pool, and thus take jobs
that might be taken elsewhere by city residents and will do so no matter how
many lower paying jobs it is reasonable to expect to be created.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4>Fourthly, I would guess that it would be very difficult
to determine exactly how many native Moscow residents are remaining in
the various age strata let alone how many are or have in various past
periods out-migrated and why. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4>Fifthly, you argue that native Moscow residents are leaving
because of the cost of living and lack of job opportunities:</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4>Some natives of most cities leave for a wide variety of
reasons. None of the data you have produced shows that it is specifically
native Moscow residents who are leaving or why whoever is leaving are
leaving. You are only guessing about the number and why. Because of
the university and its transient population, the kind of out-migration occurring
and the reasons for it are very difficult to assess. There is
some data available, but I do not have access to it and do not know about its
reliability or validity. Guessing is not research, and
claiming guessing is research is lying, and like your $700 figure above, a
Courtney/Farris type of sham like the one we saw yesterday.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4>However, I would guess (and it is nothing but a guess since I
have no hard data) that some young native Moscow residents do
leave. There are a number of native young here who are the children of
educated university and other professionals. The percentage of such going
on to higher education is usually higher than that of an average city.
Many go to the university here, at least in the beginning. Obviously,
there are not jobs or enough job in specialized areas* in Moscow for these
students when they graduate and probably will never be, hence
out-migration. Some of these young go elsewhere for their higher
education from the get-go, hence out-migration.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4>*If a native Moscow resident earns a degree in chemical
engineering or French while at the University of Idaho, the odds of finding a
commensurate position in Moscow are slim and not likely to change very
fast. Likewise, there are not enough teaching positions in Moscow to
create opportunities for all the native Moscow residents who earn a teaching
degree.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4>Be sure to read the above carefully. I am pointing out
that your facts are incorrect/incomplete and/or your arguments are fallacious
and do not support your conclusions. It is possible that the conclusions
you draw might be partly true. You just haven't supported those
conclusions with the right facts and correct argument.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4>It would be nice if there would be more higher paying jobs in
Moscow. Besides the obvious benefits, higher paying jobs also indirectly
bring about more lower paying jobs. Also, it may not have occurred to
you but people sometimes choose to live in areas with a higher cost of living
because of the quality of life they wish to enjoy. They consciously
estimate and make a trade off. The WalMart dispute was in part a dispute
over the quality of life in Moscow.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4>If you want see how a formerly very nice city with a highly
desirable quality of life for its then residents has been screwed up and
changed for the much worse in the opinion of many of the long-time residents,
visit Bend, Oregon and surrounds. I hope that this does not happen to
Moscow.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4><BR>Art Deco (Wayne A. Fox)<BR><A
href="mailto:deco@moscow.com">deco@moscow.com</A><BR></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message -----
<DIV style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; font-color: black"><B>From:</B> <A
title=donovanjarnold2005@yahoo.com
href="mailto:donovanjarnold2005@yahoo.com">Donovan Arnold</A> </DIV>
<DIV><B>To:</B> <A title=deco@moscow.com href="mailto:deco@moscow.com">Art
Deco</A> ; <A title=vision2020@moscow.com
href="mailto:vision2020@moscow.com">Vision 2020</A> </DIV>
<DIV><B>Sent:</B> Wednesday, October 11, 2006 4:38 PM</DIV>
<DIV><B>Subject:</B> Re: [Vision2020] Is Moscow Ready for Reservoir?</DIV></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4></FONT><FONT size=4></FONT><BR></DIV><FONT
style="COLOR: rgb(0,0,0)" size=3>Wayne,<BR><BR>You wrote:<BR></FONT><FONT
style="COLOR: rgb(0,0,0)" size=3><BR>"Whether these numbers you present are true
or not, they do not support the allegations you made in the paragraph I
cited. That paragraph was a gross exaggeration and when I was a kid, would
have been called a bald-faced lie."<BR><BR>In response to me
stating:<BR><BR><BR></FONT><FONT style="COLOR: rgb(0,0,0)" size=3>"In Boise
mortgages are only like $700 for a three or four bedroom house. Jobs in
Moscow pay less than 30K a year, our county population is shrinking and native
Moscow residents are being replaced by Californians and others not from here
because of the cost of living and lack of job opportunities."<BR><BR>OK Wayne,
since you seem to unable to research simple facts on your own, I will break it
down so can follow: <BR><BR></FONT><FONT style="COLOR: rgb(0,0,0)" size=3>First
Sentence of quote:<BR><BR>"In Boise mortgages are only like $700 for a three or
four bedroom house. " <BR><BR> PROOF: Math doesn't Lie, therefore, lets use
it:<BR><BR>Look on any mortgage calculator and you will see that a $123,000
(average home price) home mortgage is less than $700 a month.<BR><BR>A family
that puts down $20,000 down on an average home in Boise, at 6% interest rate
(about avg.) pays only $600 a month. Count in property taxes, that is about $700
a month. If you don't believe it, do the calculation
yourself:<BR><BR>http://www.mortgage-calc.com/amortization/amortizationscheduleandcalculator.html<BR><BR>Or
find a calculator yourself by doing a search on the Internet. It is pretty
simple.<BR><BR>Second phrase in the quote:<BR><BR></FONT><FONT
style="COLOR: rgb(0,0,0)" size=3>"Jobs in Moscow pay less than 30K a
year"<BR><BR>Proof: Again, listed on: <BR><BR><A
href="http://www.nextag.com/home-mortgage/2/ID/Moscow.html">http://www.nextag.com/home-mortgage/2/ID/Moscow.html</A><BR><BR>Gross
Income for an entire household in Moscow, two people working: <BR>$30,125.0
<BR><BR>Third Phrase:<BR></FONT><FONT style="COLOR: rgb(0,0,0)" size=3>"our
county population is shrinking"<BR><BR>PROOF: According to the Idaho Department
of Commerce/Labor
http://lmi.idaho.gov/admin/uploadedPublications/4012_fyi_urban.pdf#search=%22Latah%20County%20Population%20declined%22<BR><BR>Latah
lost about 200 residents from 2000-2005 while the state gained record population
increases. <BR><BR>Last Statement:<BR></FONT><FONT size=4><FONT color=#0000ff
size=3><SPAN style="COLOR: rgb(0,0,0)">"native Moscow residents are being
replaced by Californians" </SPAN><BR style="COLOR: rgb(0,0,0)"><BR
style="COLOR: rgb(0,0,0)"><SPAN style="COLOR: rgb(0,0,0)">It is true, call the
DMV (</SPAN></FONT></FONT><FUNKY size="-1">883-7216).</FUNKY>
<DIV></DIV><FONT size=4><FONT color=#0000ff size=3><SPAN
style="COLOR: rgb(0,0,0)">They replace California driver's licenses more than
any other with the exception of Washington which is right next door.
Californians are coming in, Idahoans are going out. </SPAN><BR
style="COLOR: rgb(0,0,0)"><SPAN style="COLOR: rgb(0,0,0)">And no they are not
college students, they don't have to change driver's licenses only permanent
residents do. </SPAN><BR style="COLOR: rgb(0,0,0)"><BR
style="COLOR: rgb(0,0,0)"><SPAN style="COLOR: rgb(0,0,0)">So before you call me
a liar, do some research first. I shouldn't have to prove already well
established facts that ANY freshman high school student can verify with a simple
Internet search.<BR><BR style="COLOR: rgb(0,0,0)"></SPAN><SPAN
style="COLOR: rgb(0,0,0)">Best,</SPAN><BR style="COLOR: rgb(0,0,0)"><BR
style="COLOR: rgb(0,0,0)"><SPAN
style="COLOR: rgb(0,0,0)">_DJA</SPAN><BR></FONT></FONT><BR><BR><BR><B><I>Art
Deco <deco@moscow.com></I></B> wrote:
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<DIV><FONT size=4>Whether these numbers you present are true or not, they do
not support the allegations you made in the paragraph I cited. That
paragraph was a gross exaggeration and when I was a kid, would have been
called a bald-faced lie.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4>W.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT: 10pt arial; font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch: normal">-----
Original Message -----
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND: rgb(228,228,228) 0% 50%; moz-background-clip: initial; moz-background-origin: initial; moz-background-inline-policy: initial"><B>From:</B>
<A title=donovanjarnold2005@yahoo.com
href="mailto:donovanjarnold2005@yahoo.com">Donovan Arnold</A> </DIV>
<DIV><B>To:</B> <A title=deco@moscow.com href="mailto:deco@moscow.com">Art
Deco</A> ; <A title=vision2020@moscow.com
href="mailto:vision2020@moscow.com">Vision 2020</A> </DIV>
<DIV><B>Sent:</B> Wednesday, October 11, 2006 2:15 PM</DIV>
<DIV><B>Subject:</B> Re: [Vision2020] Is Moscow Ready for
Reservoir?</DIV></DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>Wayne,<BR><BR>Affordability of a place in Boise is less than
that of Moscow. If you don't know that, you are living in another world. Just
do a little research will ya: Here I will get you
started:<BR><BR>Consider:<BR><BR><A
href="http://www.nextag.com/home-mortgage/2/ID/Boise.html">http://www.nextag.com/home-mortgage/2/ID/Boise.html</A><BR>and<BR><A
href="http://www.nextag.com/home-mortgage/2/ID/Moscow.html">http://www.nextag.com/home-mortgage/2/ID/Moscow.html</A><BR>and
even:<BR><A
href="http://money.cnn.com/magazines/moneymag/bplive/2006/snapshots/PL1608830.html">http://money.cnn.com/magazines/moneymag/bplive/2006/snapshots/PL1608830.html</A><BR><BR><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Boise:</SPAN><BR><BR>$58,489 Average Family
Income<BR><BR>$125,767.0 Average Home Price<BR><BR>1977 is the average year
build for a home<BR><BR>5.4 rooms is the average size of a home<BR><BR><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Compare to Moscow:</SPAN><BR><BR><BR>$46,331 Medium
Family Income (not College students)<BR><BR>$128,500.0 Average Home
Price<BR><BR>1973 Average Age of a Home<BR><BR>4.9 Rooms is Average Size of
Home.<BR><BR>http://www.nextag.com/home-mortgage/2/ID/Boise.html<BR><BR><B><I><BR></I></B>The
numbers don't lie Wayne. If you are paying more for a home, earning less, the
house is smaller, and older, it is less affordable. I hope you understand
that.<B><I><BR><BR></I></B>Talk to anyone that has lived both in Moscow and
Boise, that works for living, if they think it is cheaper to live in Moscow
than Boise. Now, if I got $1 million in the bank or am living on fixed income,
Moscow is cheaper, but if you are working for an income, it is more affordable
to live in Boise than Moscow. <BR><BR>Look at what you get for $800 in Boise,
and what you get for $800 in Moscow for rent. Then take 15% off your income in
Moscow and see which is the better deal. Good grief, I would think you were
oblivious to the housing rates in Moscow and housing boom in Boise.
<BR><BR>Best,<BR><BR>_DJA<BR><BR>Art Deco
<deco@<B><I>moscow.com></I></B> wrote:
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<DIV><FONT size=4>Donovan writes:</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4>
<DIV><FONT size=4></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff size=3>"In Boise mortgages are only like $700 for a
three or four bedroom house. Jobs in Moscow pay less than 30K a year,
our county population is shrinking and native Moscow residents are being
replaced by Californians and others not from here because of the cost of
living and lack of job opportunities."</FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4>If you want to be taken seriously please tell us the <FONT
color=#0000ff><STRONG>sources</STRONG> </FONT>of the above
information and expand the details: What percentage of 3 - 4 BR
homes in Boise can be had on a regular mortgage for $700.00/month?
What is the average cost of a 3 - 4 BR house in the Boise Metro area?
What is the average mortgage amount? What is the average monthly
payment? What is the average income in Moscow when students are not
counted in the data? How many Moscow natives were displaced by
Californians beyond those that would have left anyway? How are these
numbers different for similar sized cities in the west which are islands in
rural agricultural or forest resource areas?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4>Since the issue of water quality and quantity is important
to many on this list, please give the <STRONG><FONT
color=#0000ff>sources</FONT></STRONG> for your information or resign
yourself to be regarded once and for all times as the area's largest but not
cleverest fabulist.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4>Donovan writes:</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff>"I don't think that conservation is the solution to
our problem. I think water levels are not decreasing because of our
consumption rate, but rather because of a shift in global weather patterns.
Even if Moscow residents left town all today, the water would still run
out. Just look at all the other aquifers around the world that are
also declining."</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4>Let's see. The aquifers are declining since they are
not being replenished as quickly worldwide and not because water is being
pumped from them. Hmmm. So pumping water from
aquifers has little or no effect on their levels? Please give some
<FONT color=#0000ff><STRONG>scientific sources</STRONG></FONT> for this
amazing statement including sources for data that purport to show that
precipitation is declining globally. Is it your contention that if we
were to stop pumping groundwater, the levels would still be falling at the
same rate? Perhaps a solution to your great knowledge would be a
simple Googling on "global aquifers" and a few minutes reading.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4>Since the aquifers are falling for whatever cause or
causes, it seems to me that is all the more reason to conserve.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4>After you Google on "global aquifers," try Googling to
discover the problems with using surface water for urban use and what the
project urban use is over the next few years.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4>Without commenting on your Naylor Farms remarks in depth,
it should be asked that if Naylor Farms cannot even retain an
effective attorney who can correctly fill out a CUP application form or a
competent, believable geologist, is it reasonable to expect that
they could even begin to competently design, finance, and construct a large
privately financed public works project?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4>There is no doubt that the cost to taxpayers for water and
many other natural resources will increase sharply over the next few
years. This reasons for this rise includes the rise in
population, dwindling resources, and a sharp rise in the long
term ecological debt we have now and continue to accumulate at an
accelerating pace.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4>This community has lots of citizens that do not understand
the local or global water resource issue, do not want to understand it, have
all kinds of absurd, ill-defined plans to solve it, and do not want to pay
for its solution in any way -- financially or change in habits.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4>Old, and coming from a childhood in communities where most
of the citizens then faced major problems and worked together, more or
less, to try to solve them, I find the cultural shift to wide scale
me-ism a sign that worst times are to come.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4>I am glad that my life expectancy is short so that I won't
have to see the near term ecological catastrophes and the sufferings wrought
by them, and won't have to listen to the lame excuses of those that by their
abysmal ignorance, uninformed opinionating, and selfish me-centered inaction
helped bring them about.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4><BR>Art Deco (Wayne A. Fox)<BR><A
href="mailto:deco@moscow.com">deco@moscow.com</A><BR></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT: 10pt arial; font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch: normal">-----
Original Message -----
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND: rgb(228,228,228) 0% 50%; moz-background-clip: initial; moz-background-origin: initial; moz-background-inline-policy: initial"><B>From:</B>
<A title=donovanjarnold2005@yahoo.com
href="mailto:donovanjarnold2005@yahoo.com">Donovan Arnold</A> </DIV>
<DIV><B>To:</B> <A title=joekc@adelphia.net
href="mailto:joekc@adelphia.net">Joe Campbell</A> </DIV>
<DIV><B>Cc:</B> <A title=vision2020@moscow.com
href="mailto:vision2020@moscow.com">vision2020@moscow.com</A> </DIV>
<DIV><B>Sent:</B> Tuesday, October 10, 2006 8:21 PM</DIV>
<DIV><B>Subject:</B> Re: [Vision2020] Is Moscow Ready for
Reservoir?</DIV></DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>Joe,<BR><BR>I can tell you this. Although I think it is
always a good idea to have a plan B and even a plan C and possibly a plan D,
I am not willing as a taxpayer to pay for a reservoir. I think it is just
another big expensive government project that people cannot afford. I mean
good grief, it costs $1000 to rent a 3 bedroom apartment in Moscow, people
cannot afford it anymore. In Boise mortgages are only like $700 for a three
or four bedroom house. Jobs in Moscow pay less than 30K a year, our
county population is shrinking and native Moscow residents are being
replaced by Californians and others not from here because of the cost of
living and lack of job opportunities. <BR><BR>If you want a reservoir, you
have to pay for it through private means, not taxes, which means you have to
get a private company like Naylor Farms to do it. If they can engineer a
mining operation, they can engineer digging a hole and filling it with
water. <BR><BR>I don't think that conservation is the solution to our
problem. I think water levels are not decreasing because of our consumption
rate, but rather because of a shift in global weather patterns. Even if
Moscow residents left town all today, the water would still run out.
Just look at all the other aquifers around the world that are also
declining. <BR><BR>Second, I don't want to leave behind this aquifer water
for people. I think it is nasty, smelly, bad tasting water. We have fresh
water springs less than 50 miles from here, don't you think people of the
future, 200-300 years from now would rather be drinking that than the stale
water that corrodes our pipes and smells like sulfur if your water tank
isn't over 130 degrees? I know I would. <BR><BR>If we took two years to
build one mile of pipe, we would get to a fresh healthy water supply in less
than 100 years, a good 200 years before our supply ran out.<BR><BR>I think
speculation and research is a good thing, and so is coming up with a plan B
for our water situation. However, asking for money for a water reservoir
with the limited knowledge we have is going to get a big NO from Moscow
property owners which make up most the vote. <BR><BR>Thinking realistically,
you aren't going to get a reservoir anytime in the near future with tax
dollars. Naylor Farms is more most likely our best shot.
<BR><BR>I suppose lots of people, and MCA are going to spend lots of time
pushing this idea, some will use scare tactics, but it in the end, it isn't
going to happen. <BR><BR>Best,<BR><BR>_DJA<BR><BR><BR><B><I>Joe Campbell
<joekc@adelphia.net></I></B> wrote:
<BLOCKQUOTE class=replbq
style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: rgb(16,16,255) 2px solid">Dear
Donovan,<BR><BR>Let me preface this by saying that I know very little
about water; I know more since last night -- thanks to our wonderful
panel! -- but that is still very little compared to other folks. Here are
some brief thoughts, though.<BR><BR>1/ The kind of area needed for a
reservoir is one thing; the kind of area needed for a mine is another. Why
think that they would coincide? Others can speak to this issue with more
authority, but I remain skeptical that a mine can be easily transformed
into a reservoir.<BR><BR>2/ What I especially liked about last night's
meeting is that we discussed an issue that was not "in our face." Yet it
is an issue that needs to be dealt with soon. The fact is that we use more
water than is being replaced. As long as the water supply is not endless,
it will eventually end. What to do?<BR><BR>A reservoir is one possible
solution. Water conservation is another one. But CAN we conserve enough
water to solve the problem? Shouldn't we also look at other solutions?
We're just beginning this dialogue, I think. (We're just beginning it as a
COMMUNITY. It was clear last night that there are quite a few folks who
have been thinking about these issues for a while.)<BR><BR>3/ One thing
that came across last night is that we are in a rather unique situation,
water-wise. It is possible that there is a large -- though limited -- body
of water that is currently available to Moscow. We need to think about how
we are going to use it and -- until we can provide a way of increasing
that amount -- we should plan to use it wisely.<BR><BR>Naylor farms has
plans to use a great deal of our current supply. Forgetting about the
other costs of their enterprise, it is questionable whether -- short of
some long term solution to our current water problem -- we should invest
our water capital to meet their ends.<BR><BR>4/ I wish Naylor farms would
hold a public forum similar to the one held last night. Which is just to
say, I wish that Naylor farms would give me the feeling that they gave a
rat's -ss about how I and others think about these issues.<BR><BR>I
challenge Naylor farms to approach this problem in a way that illustrates
their concern for the overall community. It is our water and the supply is
limited. If Naylor farms wants to use some of that supply, then they need
to tell us how we might benefit from their use. So far I have not seen the
benefit. Nor have I seen any recognition on their part that there is a
genuine problem here. Currently, there is just a limited supply of water.
We might debate on the amount but that the supply is limited is not an
issue for debate.<BR><BR>Until we can figure out a way to increase our
current supply of water -- through a reservoir, conservation, or some
other means -- it seems irresponsible to allow Naylor farms access to it
for their own personal needs.<BR><BR>Note that these comments are
reflective of my own thoughts, and not those of any other organization
with which I might be affiliated (the members of which likely know more
about these issues than I do).<BR><BR>Best, Joe<BR><BR>---- Donovan Arnold
<DONOVANJARNOLD2005 @yahoo.com="">wrote: <BR><BR>=============<BR>Joe and
Bruce,<BR><BR>I would love to attend your meeting, however, I cannot. You
guys really need to check with me before you schedule these meetings to
make sure I am free, cause you know, I work and go to school and right now
I am also sick. ; )<BR><BR>But my advice is that you work with Naylor
Farms to meet both your goals. Maybe the money raised from mining can be
used to pay for the reservoir. Working with people you have disagreements
with rather than shutting them down all the time might work better to meet
some of your long term goals. <BR><BR>Is there any reason why the water
used by Naylor Farms cannot be used to fill the reservoir? Is there any
reason why the hole they dig cannot be the reservoir? Is there any reason
why the taxes and fines they pay the county to mine cannot be used to pay
for the project? I think a reservoir on top of a hill just a mile or town
out of town is a perfect place to have one. <BR><BR>Those are the
questions I would ask if I could attend this meeting.
<BR><BR>Best,<BR><BR>_DJA<BR><BR><BR>Joe Campbell <JOEKC
@adelphia.net="">wrote:Come to the meeting, Donovan! Note that the title
of the meeting is a question, not a statement. We're going to discuss the
plusses and minuses and try to help folks reach an informed decision on
the matter.<BR><BR>--<BR>Joe Campbell<BR><BR>---- Donovan Arnold wrote:
<BR><BR>=============<BR>Won't digging a reservoir cause health problems
with dust being less then 1.5 miles away from Moscow? And won't it use a
lot of water?<BR><BR>Why don't we just have Naylor Farms dig us a hole,
take the clay and dirt away, and use the water to fill the
reservoir?<BR><BR>Curious minds want to know.
<BR><BR>Best,<BR><BR>_DJA<BR><BR>Bruce and Jean Livingston wrote:
Reminder: MCA meeting on whether Moscow should consider building a water
reservoir.<BR><BR>MCA General Public Meeting on Monday Oct. 9 at 1912
Building @ 7p.m.<BR>Water Solutions – Is Moscow Ready for a
Reservoir?<BR>Panelists: <BR>Jerry Fairley, Professor of Hydrogeology, U
of Idaho<BR>Dianne French, founder of Palouse Water Conservation
Network<BR>Gary Riedner, Moscow City Supervisor<BR>Steve Robischon, Exec.
Mgr. of Palouse Basin Aquifer Committee<BR>Mark Solomon, Palouse Water
Conservation
Network<BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR>=======================================================<BR>List
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low will we go? Check out Yahoo! Messenger’s low PC-to-Phone call
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<BR>mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com<BR>=======================================================</JOEKC></DONOVANJARNOLD2005></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
<DIV></DIV>
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<DIV></DIV>
<META content="MSHTML 6.00.2900.2963" name=GENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
<DIV><FONT size=4>Donovan writes:</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4>
<DIV><FONT size=4></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff size=3>"In Boise mortgages are only like $700 for a
three or four bedroom house. Jobs in Moscow pay less than 30K a year,
our county population is shrinking and native Moscow residents are being
replaced by Californians and others not from here because of the cost of
living and lack of job opportunities."</FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4>If you want to be taken seriously please tell us the <FONT
color=#0000ff><STRONG>sources</STRONG> </FONT>of the above
information and expand the details: What percentage of 3 - 4 BR
homes in Boise can be had on a regular mortgage for $700.00/month?
What is the average cost of a 3 - 4 BR house in the Boise Metro area?
What is the average mortgage amount? What is the average monthly
payment? What is the average income in Moscow when students are not
counted in the data? How many Moscow natives were displaced by
Californians beyond those that would have left anyway? How are these
numbers different for similar sized cities in the west which are islands in
rural ag or forest resource areas?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4>Since the issue of water quality and quantity is important
to many on this list, please give the <STRONG><FONT
color=#0000ff>sources</FONT></STRONG> for your information or resign
yourself to be regarded once and for all times as the area's largest but not
cleverest fabulist.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4>Donovan writes:</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff>"I don't think that conservation is the solution to
our problem. I think water levels are not decreasing because of our
consumption rate, but rather because of a shift in global weather patterns.
Even if Moscow residents left town all today, the water would still run
out. Just look at all the other aquifers around the world that are
also declining."</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4>Let's see. The aquifers are declining since they are
not being replenished as quickly worldwide and not because water is being
pumped from them. Hmmm. So pumping water from
aquifers has little or no effect on their levels? Please give some
<FONT color=#0000ff><STRONG>scientific sources</STRONG></FONT> for this
amazing statement including sources for data that purport to show that
precipitation is declining globally. Is it your contention that if we
were to stop pumping groundwater, the levels would still be falling at the
same rate? Perhaps a solution to your great knowledge would be a
simple Googling on "global aquifers" and a few minutes reading.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4>Since the aquifers are falling for whatever cause or
causes, it seems to me that is all the more reason to conserve.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4>After you Google on "global aquifers," try Googling to
discover the problems with using surface water for urban use and what the
project urban use is over the next few years.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4>Without commenting on your Naylor Farms remarks in depth,
it should be asked that if Naylor Farms cannot even retain an
effective attorney who could correctly fill out a CUP application form or a
competent, believable geologist, is it reasonable to expect that
they could even begin to competently design, finance, and construct a large
privately financed public works project?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4>There is no doubt that the cost to taxpayers for water and
many other natural resources will increase sharply over the next few
years. This reasons for this rise includes the rise in
population, dwindling resources, and a sharp rise in the long
term ecological debt we have now and continue to accumulate at an
accelerating pace.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4>The community has lots of citizens that do not understand
the local or global water resource issue, do not want to understand it, have
all kinds of absurd, ill-defined plans to solve it, and do not want to pay
for its solution.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4>Old, and coming from a childhood in communities where most
of the citizens then faced major problems and worked together, more or
less, try to solve them, I find the cultural shift to wide scale me-ism
a sign that worst times are to come.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4>I am glad that my life expectancy is short so that I won't
have to see the near term ecological catastrophes and the sufferings wrought
by them, and won't have to listen to the lame excuses of those that by their
abysmal ignorance, uninformed opinionating, and selfish inaction helped
bring them about.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4><BR>Art Deco (Wayne A. Fox)<BR><A
href="mailto:deco@moscow.com">deco@moscow.com</A><BR></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT: 10pt arial; font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch: normal">-----
Original Message -----
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND: rgb(228,228,228) 0% 50%; moz-background-clip: initial; moz-background-origin: initial; moz-background-inline-policy: initial"><B>From:</B>
<A title=donovanjarnold2005@yahoo.com
href="mailto:donovanjarnold2005@yahoo.com">Donovan Arnold</A> </DIV>
<DIV><B>To:</B> <A title=joekc@adelphia.net
href="mailto:joekc@adelphia.net">Joe Campbell</A> </DIV>
<DIV><B>Cc:</B> <A title=vision2020@moscow.com
href="mailto:vision2020@moscow.com">vision2020@moscow.com</A> </DIV>
<DIV><B>Sent:</B> Tuesday, October 10, 2006 8:21 PM</DIV>
<DIV><B>Subject:</B> Re: [Vision2020] Is Moscow Ready for
Reservoir?</DIV></DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>Joe,<BR><BR>I can tell you this. Although I think it is
always a good idea to have a plan B and even a plan C and possibly a plan D,
I am not willing as a taxpayer to pay for a reservoir. I think it is just
another big expensive government project that people cannot afford. I mean
good grief, it costs $1000 to rent a 3 bedroom apartment in Moscow, people
cannot afford it anymore. In Boise mortgages are only like $700 for a three
or four bedroom house. Jobs in Moscow pay less than 30K a year, our
county population is shrinking and native Moscow residents are being
replaced by Californians and others not from here because of the cost of
living and lack of job opportunities. <BR><BR>If you want a reservoir, you
have to pay for it through private means, not taxes, which means you have to
get a private company like Naylor Farms to do it. If they can engineer a
mining operation, they can engineer digging a hole and filling it with
water. <BR><BR>I don't think that conservation is the solution to our
problem. I think water levels are not decreasing because of our consumption
rate, but rather because of a shift in global weather patterns. Even if
Moscow residents left town all today, the water would still run out.
Just look at all the other aquifers around the world that are also
declining. <BR><BR>Second, I don't want to leave behind this aquifer water
for people. I think it is nasty, smelly, bad tasting water. We have fresh
water springs less than 50 miles from here, don't you think people of the
future, 200-300 years from now would rather be drinking that than the stale
water that corrodes our pipes and smells like sulfur if your water tank
isn't over 130 degrees? I know I would. <BR><BR>If we took two years to
build one mile of pipe, we would get to a fresh healthy water supply in less
than 100 years, a good 200 years before our supply ran out.<BR><BR>I think
speculation and research is a good thing, and so is coming up with a plan B
for our water situation. However, asking for money for a water reservoir
with the limited knowledge we have is going to get a big NO from Moscow
property owners which make up most the vote. <BR><BR>Thinking realistically,
you aren't going to get a reservoir anytime in the near future with tax
dollars. Naylor Farms is more most likely our best shot.
<BR><BR>I suppose lots of people, and MCA are going to spend lots of time
pushing this idea, some will use scare tactics, but it in the end, it isn't
going to happen. <BR><BR>Best,<BR><BR>_DJA<BR><BR><BR><B><I>Joe Campbell
<joekc@adelphia.net></I></B> wrote:
<BLOCKQUOTE class=replbq
style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: rgb(16,16,255) 2px solid">Dear
Donovan,<BR><BR>Let me preface this by saying that I know very little
about water; I know more since last night -- thanks to our wonderful
panel! -- but that is still very little compared to other folks. Here are
some brief thoughts, though.<BR><BR>1/ The kind of area needed for a
reservoir is one thing; the kind of area needed for a mine is another. Why
think that they would coincide? Others can speak to this issue with more
authority, but I remain skeptical that a mine can be easily transformed
into a reservoir.<BR><BR>2/ What I especially liked about last night's
meeting is that we discussed an issue that was not "in our face." Yet it
is an issue that needs to be dealt with soon. The fact is that we use more
water than is being replaced. As long as the water supply is not endless,
it will eventually end. What to do?<BR><BR>A reservoir is one possible
solution. Water conservation is another one. But CAN we conserve enough
water to solve the problem? Shouldn't we also look at other solutions?
We're just beginning this dialogue, I think. (We're just beginning it as a
COMMUNITY. It was clear last night that there are quite a few folks who
have been thinking about these issues for a while.)<BR><BR>3/ One thing
that came across last night is that we are in a rather unique situation,
water-wise. It is possible that there is a large -- though limited -- body
of water that is currently available to Moscow. We need to think about how
we are going to use it and -- until we can provide a way of increasing
that amount -- we should plan to use it wisely.<BR><BR>Naylor farms has
plans to use a great deal of our current supply. Forgetting about the
other costs of their enterprise, it is questionable whether -- short of
some long term solution to our current water problem -- we should invest
our water capital to meet their ends.<BR><BR>4/ I wish Naylor farms would
hold a public forum similar to the one held last night. Which is just to
say, I wish that Naylor farms would give me the feeling that they gave a
rat's -ss about how I and others think about these issues.<BR><BR>I
challenge Naylor farms to approach this problem in a way that illustrates
their concern for the overall community. It is our water and the supply is
limited. If Naylor farms wants to use some of that supply, then they need
to tell us how we might benefit from their use. So far I have not seen the
benefit. Nor have I seen any recognition on their part that there is a
genuine problem here. Currently, there is just a limited supply of water.
We might debate on the amount but that the supply is limited is not an
issue for debate.<BR><BR>Until we can figure out a way to increase our
current supply of water -- through a reservoir, conservation, or some
other means -- it seems irresponsible to allow Naylor farms access to it
for their own personal needs.<BR><BR>Note that these comments are
reflective of my own thoughts, and not those of any other organization
with which I might be affiliated (the members of which likely know more
about these issues than I do).<BR><BR>Best, Joe<BR><BR>---- Donovan Arnold
<DONOVANJARNOLD2005 @yahoo.com="">wrote: <BR><BR>=============<BR>Joe and
Bruce,<BR><BR>I would love to attend your meeting, however, I cannot. You
guys really need to check with me before you schedule these meetings to
make sure I am free, cause you know, I work and go to school and right now
I am also sick. ; )<BR><BR>But my advice is that you work with Naylor
Farms to meet both your goals. Maybe the money raised from mining can be
used to pay for the reservoir. Working with people you have disagreements
with rather than shutting them down all the time might work better to meet
some of your long term goals. <BR><BR>Is there any reason why the water
used by Naylor Farms cannot be used to fill the reservoir? Is there any
reason why the hole they dig cannot be the reservoir? Is there any reason
why the taxes and fines they pay the county to mine cannot be used to pay
for the project? I think a reservoir on top of a hill just a mile or town
out of town is a perfect place to have one. <BR><BR>Those are the
questions I would ask if I could attend this meeting.
<BR><BR>Best,<BR><BR>_DJA<BR><BR><BR>Joe Campbell <JOEKC
@adelphia.net="">wrote:Come to the meeting, Donovan! Note that the title
of the meeting is a question, not a statement. We're going to discuss the
plusses and minuses and try to help folks reach an informed decision on
the matter.<BR><BR>--<BR>Joe Campbell<BR><BR>---- Donovan Arnold wrote:
<BR><BR>=============<BR>Won't digging a reservoir cause health problems
with dust being less then 1.5 miles away from Moscow? And won't it use a
lot of water?<BR><BR>Why don't we just have Naylor Farms dig us a hole,
take the clay and dirt away, and use the water to fill the
reservoir?<BR><BR>Curious minds want to know.
<BR><BR>Best,<BR><BR>_DJA<BR><BR>Bruce and Jean Livingston wrote:
Reminder: MCA meeting on whether Moscow should consider building a water
reservoir.<BR><BR>MCA General Public Meeting on Monday Oct. 9 at 1912
Building @ 7p.m.<BR>Water Solutions – Is Moscow Ready for a
Reservoir?<BR>Panelists: <BR>Jerry Fairley, Professor of Hydrogeology, U
of Idaho<BR>Dianne French, founder of Palouse Water Conservation
Network<BR>Gary Riedner, Moscow City Supervisor<BR>Steve Robischon, Exec.
Mgr. of Palouse Basin Aquifer Committee<BR>Mark Solomon, Palouse Water
Conservation
Network<BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR>=======================================================<BR>List
services made available by First Step Internet, <BR>serving the
communities of the Palouse since 1994. <BR>http://www.fsr.net
<BR>mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com<BR>=======================================================<BR><BR><BR>---------------------------------<BR>Yahoo!
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<BR>mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com<BR>=======================================================</JOEKC></DONOVANJARNOLD2005></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
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