Joe,<br> <br> What names have I called Sunil, Joe? It is your friends that are the ones calling people names.<br> <br> In terms of the issues, sometimes people are the issue. As with you and Doug Wilson, you and Gary Crabtree, and a host of others. <br> <br> I simply stated that Sunil does in fact defend child molesters. That is an indisputable fact, or do you disagree with that?<br> <br> I also stated that I think Sunil defends terrorists. I think that to be true. He has repeatedly made posts for the benefit of those that attacked this country. And has never praised this country for anything. <br> <br> Why is that an issue? Well, I think that when people make excuses to release child molesters into the public and as a result children are placed at risk, that is an issue. You might not. But I am willing to bet if you read the stories of released child molesters and what they have done with children when released unsupervised, you would be horrified. <br>
<br> Trying to put blame on the "legal system" and not the people that do it I think doesn't solve the problem and is a cop out. If a lawyer advocates for the release of a self admitted child molester to roam unsupervised, I think all those involved in that decision are responsible for the consequences.<br> <br> I call people of power and position on their actions Joe. I will not stop doing that. "it was my job" just doesn't cut it for me. If it makes people mad, good, maybe it will make them think why they do what they do. <br> <br> Best to you Joe,<br> <br> _DJA<br><br><b><i>Joe Campbell <joekc@adelphia.net></i></b> wrote:<blockquote class="replbq" style="border-left: 2px solid rgb(16, 16, 255); margin-left: 5px; padding-left: 5px;"> Dear Donovan,<br><br>No one is trying to prevent you from expressing your opinions, at least your opinions on specific topics as opposed to specific people. But when you confuse the defense of the rights of
terrorists and child molesters with a defense of their actions, you have just gone too far. You're no longer engaging in debate, nor are you encouraging it.<br><br>I'd like to tell you why I think your views on this topic are wrong, but I have no desire to get caught up in another name-calling battle.<br><br>Best, Joe<br><br>---- Donovan Arnold <donovanjarnold2005 @yahoo.com=""> wrote: <br><br>=============<br>One way I confirm that I am on track is when the Collective Authoritative Elitists, who mistakenly identify themselves as liberals in this town, start telling me to shut up and re-frame from expressing my opinion. <br> <br> I am saddened but not surprised how they are defending the point that self admitted and convicted child molesters have rights and that representing those rights and fighting for their unsupervised release from prison is an honorable profession. It just exposes their true selves. Letting child molesters and other predators out of jail
to do harm is exactly what is WRONG with this country's judicial system. They are more concerned about the rights of men that molest little six year old girls then the little six year old girls. What a sick and twisted way to set priorities!<br> <br> Who's fault do you honestly think it is when a convicted child molester is freed and gets a hold of another child? Who argued for his release? I will tell you who, lawyers that think they got rights and argue for their release, that is who. Those lawyers decide and take those actions. It is messed up I tell you. And I'll bet $100 that was not what the founding fathers had in mind when they wrote the Constitution. <br> <br> I also am ashamed of their defense of terrorists that have murderously killed thousands of Americans, men, women, and children. It shows their total reckless endangerment and lack of concern for the well being for this nation and those in it. Are they on our side? There is a huge question
mark as to who's side they are on. Were they cheering or crying when the twin towers fell? I wonder. <br> <br> Just once I would like to hear some of these elitists express their hatred towards others that have wronged this nation, rather then defend them. Just once I would like to hear them praise the United States, admit there is a God above them, and that terrorism is always wrong. They instead declare themselves as Gods, demand their way of thinking be the only way of thinking, their form of justice be the only justice even if it results in the death or molestation of the innocent, and their opinion be the only one that be expressed.<br> <br> What I say may be chilling and dreadful, but it is not slanderous, because it is true, it is true because that is what is typed from finger tips and spoken from their lips. <br> <br> Best,<br> <br> _DJA<br><br>Betsy Dickow <betsyd @turbonet.com=""> wrote: Donovan,<br> <br> You are more and more
shrill and it is chilling to read the slanderous and dreadful things you think. Please pull yourself together and try to be civil.<br> <br> Yours,<br> <br> Betsy <br> ----- Original Message ----- <br> From: Donovan Arnold <br> To: keely emerinemix ; sunilramalingam@hotmail.com ; vision2020@moscow.com <br> Sent: Sunday, September 17, 2006 3:30 PM<br> Subject: [Spam] Re: [Vision2020] attacks that really matter<br> <br><br><br>Keely writes:<br><br>"We fear dark-skinned men of Middle Eastern descent because of the vicious <br>actions of a few, but most of white America would be loath to hold Anglo men in <br>wary suspicion, even though white youths are the ones committing school <br>shootings and middle-aged white men are looting the pensions of American workers <br>through Enron and other white-collar acts of economic violence."<br><br>What race baiting bullshit! When you are losing on a issue blame it on discrimination?<br><br>This has
nothing to do with any person's race. It has to do with people being terrorists and<br>killing other innocent people. Terrorists come in all races.<br><br>And for your information, I am too much of an idiot to know what race Sunil is. <br>I still don't, and you know what, I don't care. It is not the issue at hand. <br><br>And yes, I do think Keely caused the defeat of the MSD Bond. I had<br>people all over this town telling me, by email, in person, etc,<br> they<br>cannot stand her and that is why they voted against the school levy. Dale Courtney<br>loves her because she is the one that lowered his taxes. <br><br>Maybe she can link that to discrimination against women, or housewives or something. It<br>doesn't have to make sense, nothing out of her ever does. <br><br>Best,<br><br>_DJA<br><br><br><br>keely emerinemix <kjajmix1 @msn.com=""> wrote: People write me off list or call me to ask why I ever respond to Donovan, <br>particularly when he goes off
the edge and accuses me of things like <br>destroying MSD by turning two-thirds of our neighbors against public <br>education -- singlehandedly. (Gee, and I had hoped to use my powers for <br>good, not evil. Bummer it didn't work out that way. Dang.)<br><br>On a more serious note, let me just say that I am disinclined to respond to <br>Donovan when he writes about me, or about things that have no real <br>consequence. But there are things that Donovan says via Vision 2020 that <br>could, potentially, result in very real consequences. One of them is his <br>slanderous attacks against Sunil Ramalingam.<br><br>The political climate of the day is dangerous. It's dangerous to engage in <br>public criticism of our government, it's dangerous to defend people at home <br>and abroad who are victims of any form of oppression the White House doesn't <br>recognize as terrorism, and it's dangerous, frankly, to be
very different <br>from your neighbor. By "dangerous," I don't mean that jack-booted thugs <br>will automatically drag you from your house, or that roaming bands of <br>vigilantes will beat you to a bloody pulp. I do mean that there is a <br>climate of hatred and hysteria in the U.S. now that makes speaking out <br>against any part of our "war on terrorism" risky to one's reputation, <br>livelihood, and perhaps even one's physical safety in some communities.<br><br>We've defined the "other," and we presume to know who he is simply because <br>of a facet of "otherness" that we believe we've identified. We fear <br>dark-skinned men of Middle Eastern descent because of the vicious actions of <br>a few, but most of white America would be loath to hold Anglo men in wary <br>suspicion, even though white youths are the ones committing school shootings <br>and middle-aged white men are looting the
pensions of American workers <br>through Enron and other white-collar acts of economic violence. Even people <br>I had considered to be liberals acknowledge their unease and disgust with <br>"them" (Muslims, Middle-Eastern men, foreign students, Sikhs, or anyone else <br>who looks, believes, and acts differently while possessing skin darker than <br>theirs), and they do so with only the vaguest sense of remorse. It is wrong <br>in this or any other political climate to accuse someone of siding with or <br>defending terrorists without clear, incontrovertible proof that that is, in <br>fact, true. But if Sunil were, say, a freckled guy named Kevin O'Reilly, I <br>doubt that the sneering accusations would gather much traction. That he <br>isn't a towheaded Anglo guy ought to be neither here nor there, but Sunil <br>has volunteered that he has been called many ugly things because of his race <br>and
coloration, and in a country obsessed with finding "them" -- those <br>seemingly normal-looking people who are really out to hurt us -- such <br>accusations of sympathy for terrorists are particularly odious and <br>particularly damaging. Read Dick Sherwin's comments earlier today: the <br>idea that perhaps Sunil is showing "his true self" is, frankly, chilling in <br>the context of the day.<br><br>I have stated before that Sunil doesn't need my defense, nor has he ever <br>asked for it. I've seen Sunil twice in my life, and the most recent was <br>last month, at the sentencing of my friend Bob on drug charges. I love Bob <br>and I'm grateful for Sunil's work on his case; more than that, I think that <br>the work Sunil does represents the very best part of what makes America <br>different from nations groaning under the burden of fascist, theological <br>oppression. I would be morally wrong to remain
silent when his character is <br>attacked -- even if it means engaging with Donovan. I'm sorry he's as angry <br>with me as he is, but he has my prayers anyway; other than that, I spend <br>little time thinking about it all.<br><br>The stakes in this game are high, too high to assume that the maturity or <br>intelligence of the accuser in any way negates or mutes the effect on the <br>accused.<br><br>keely<br><br>From: Donovan Arnold <br>To: keely emerinemix , sunilramalingam@hotmail.com, <br>vision2020@moscow.com<br>Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Keely -- not a wielder of great power<br>Date: Sun, 17 Sep 2006 01:56:34 -0700 (PDT)<br><br>Keely,<br><br>For someone that claims they do not care what I think or say you sure <br>spend a lot of time addressing my comments.<br><br>I NEVER referred to Sunil's defense of terrorists in reference to his <br>workplace. I was referring to his defense of terrorists
on Vision2020, I <br>think I made that clear, repeatedly. If you read my entire email and <br>clicked the links I provided you would know that.<br><br>As to the defense of already convicted child molesters, Sunil has already <br>stated that he does that. You agreed that was great and important, that is <br>your right, I don't agree with that.<br><br>As to your ability to wield power, I think you have demonstrated a great <br>deal of power to destroy the Moscow School District and enrage its <br>supporters. MSD lost revenue and support to replace Russell and West Park <br>by attaching it to a financially irresponsible plan, that to me is a great <br>deal of power. I haven't know anyone to turn 63% of Moscow against <br>education, but you have that power Keely.<br><br>Best,<br><br>_DJA<br><br>keely emerinemix wrote: Donovan,<br><br>I couldn't care less what you think of me, and I'm sure Sunil is
not<br>terribly bothered by what you think of him. And I am well acquainted with<br>the definition and criteria for slander. It is slanderous for you to say<br>that Sunil "defends terrorists," particularly given his position as a public<br>defender. The context of "defending" is, in this case, that he works as an<br>attorney and "defender" of those accused of crimes. Should you ever be<br>accused of a crime, I would presume that you would be cognizant of the<br>importance of his work.<br><br>I am a "master" of nothing, really, and if I wielded the power to make<br>people believe the sun really does come up in the West, my kitchen would be<br>a helluva lot cleaner right now, such would be my influence over the<br>teenagers living with me. Frankly, the only thing I would do if I had such<br>tremendous powers of persuasion would be to offer to meet with you to<br>discuss real issues like real adults.
However, I suspect that would be as<br>fruitful as my clearing my plugged kitchen sink by inhaling the contents of<br>the drain, and only slightly less unpleasant.<br><br>keely<br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br>From: Donovan Arnold<br>To: Sunil Ramalingam , vision2020@moscow.com<br>Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Sunil and His Defense of Terrorists<br>andConvictedChild Molesters<br>Date: Sat, 16 Sep 2006 14:02:45 -0700 (PDT)<br><br>Jackie,<br><br>I never stated that Sunil supports terrorism and child molestation, that<br>is preposterous, re-read what I wrote. I said he defends those that do.<br><br>Keely,<br><br>The definition of slander is the saying of something that is false and<br>damaging. If it is true, it isn't slander. Sunil himself admits to<br>defending convicted child molesters:<br><br><br>"It is true that I defend convicted child molesters at sentencing<br><br>hearings that occur after a
client has been convicted by a jury"<br><br>Sunil Ramalingam--<br>http://mailman.fsr.com/pipermail/vision2020/2006-September/035436.html<br><br><br>Sunil,<br><br>I am not going to try and argue with you. For you are the master of<br>convincing the jury that the Sun really rises in the West depending on ones<br>point of view.<br><br>I am sure that you can argue that I got the context wrong in some of <br>your<br>posts, but after 20+ such posts over 2.5 years it is hard to write all them<br>off.<br><br>FYI, I did support Sami Omar. He was living in UI Family Housing at the<br>time he was abducted. I represented Family Housing in the UI student<br>government at the time. I defended Sami in student council and even brought<br>his family there, which was even aired on public television. I kept in<br>contact with John Dickinson about what was going at the trial in Boise.<br>That case is different,
because it was a domestic case and there was no<br>evidence whatsoever that Sami was a terrorist, in fact it all pointed in<br>the opposite direction. Further, Sami was not saying he was planning on<br>killing Americans when he gets out like those detained overseas. And, at<br>least one member of Sami's family was born right here in Moscow.<br><br>I don't think the government can detain someone forever without at least<br>trying to find out if someone is guilty. But letting them go if they say<br>"Death to America" is just to risky when they are capable of acting on it.<br><br>My disagreement with you Sunil, is that you clearly are brilliant, yet<br>rather than using your talents to defend victims in our society, you use<br>your wit and experience to defend convicted child molesters.<br><br>I am not arguing you are not doing your job, or you are not good at it.<br>I am arguing that your job should be
something more productive and<br>meaningful then the release of child molesters and the scum of the earth<br>when you know they are guilty.<br><br>I am sure you with your big brain will justify that in your own mind. <br>But<br>I think anyone with a heart will ask WHY the child molesters get a good<br>lawyer and trial when there are so many other more deserving and wronged<br>people with their rights being stepped on. They should be a higher priority<br>to you and any lawyer concerned about justice.<br><br>Best,<br><br>_DJA<br><br>Sunil Ramalingam wrote: Tom,<br><br>It is true that I defend convicted child molesters at sentencing hearings<br>that occur after a client has been convicted by a jury (or a judge in<br>juvenile cases) at the sentencing hearing and in subsequent legal<br>proceedings, or at a post-conviction hearing filed by a client who is<br>usually in prison. If a convicted child
molester is charged with a new<br>crime, then I may defend that person. As a public defender I don't judge my<br>clients; there is no shortage of people ready to do this (regardless of how<br>much or how little information they have about the crime or the criminal)<br>and it's not my place or job to do so. I try to represent them to the best<br>of my ability, and I don't apologize for this.<br><br>I have never represented a convicted terrorist as a lawyer, though I would<br>were I to be appointed to do so or if I were retained to do so. I did<br>represent a witness in Sami al Hussein's case, and am happy I was able to<br>offer him assistance. Perhaps Donovan would like to insult me for doing so.<br><br>As one who believes our judicial system has underlying principles, I believe<br>that all people who are held have the right to due process and a fair and<br>proper hearing. I do not believe that we
have the right to imprison people,<br>no matter what we label them, forever, or to try them in kangaroo courts.<br>This is a defense of legal principle and human rights. I consider it a<br>defense of our country, and the notion that we have enduring principles<br>These are beliefs that Donovan neither shares nor supports. He is a fan of<br>expedience.<br><br>Though Donovan does not support the Iraq war, he appears to find the Bush<br>Administration infallible once they arrest or confine a Muslim. At that<br>point he believes it is appropriate to hold that person indefinately. I<br>find this position shameful and disgusting, and Donovan finds me repugnant<br>because of this, I am willing to live with the loss of his approval.<br><br>It is interesting to note the subject line of Donovan's most recent post.<br>He has claimed he only attacks those who attack him. Most recently he<br>incorrectly made fun of
Keely's spelling; I asked him if he wanted the same<br>done to him. Since we all post all too quickly, we all make spelling<br>errors, and few of us would really want to have our own posts criticized for<br>our typos. This is the point I was making.<br><br>Donovan, in the thoughtful and Christian response we have all learned so<br>well, responds by attacking my character in a way that has the smallest germ<br>of truth but is intended to be a slur. I have written him offline and<br>pointed out that hatred of Middle Easterners has often resulted in racial<br>slurs and threats being directed towards me; I have told him that I consider<br>his calling me a defender of terrorists could actually be harmful to me.<br>You see the effect (or is it 'affect' Donovan?) my request has had on him.<br><br>Of course, this is the man, or aging adolescent, who has suggested it would<br>benefit the gene pool if
children were to die playing in construction sites<br>that should be off-limits if their parents fail to provide proper<br>supervision, so I would be foolish to expect better of him.<br><br>Sunil<br><br><br>>From: "Tom Hansen"<br>>To: "'Donovan Arnold'" , "'Sunil<br>>Ramalingam'" ,<br>>Subject: RE: [Vision2020] Sunil and His Defense of Terrorists and<br>>ConvictedChild Molesters<br>>Date: Sat, 16 Sep 2006 07:05:37 -0700<br>><br>>Arnold -<br>><br>><br>><br>>Your statement, here on a public listserve, that Sunil Ramalingam defends<br>>convicted child molesters and convicted terrorists, reflects upon your<br>lack<br>>of maturity and sense of decency, and in virtually all litigious circles<br>>maybe considered libelous.<br>><br>><br>><br>>Name ONE convicted child molester which Sunil has defended!<br>><br>><br>><br>>Name ONE convicted
terrorist which Sunil has defended!<br>><br>><br>><br>>Failing either of these requests, you owe Sunil a VERY meaningful and <br>VERY<br>>public apology.<br>><br>><br>><br>>Tom Hansen<br>><br>>Vandalville, Idaho<br>><br><br><br>=======================================================<br>List services made available by First Step Internet,<br>serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.<br>http://www.fsr.net<br>mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com<br>=======================================================<br><br><br><br>---------------------------------<br>Why keep checking for Mail? The all-new Yahoo! Mail shows you when there are<br>new messages.<br><br><br>=======================================================<br>List services made available by First Step Internet,<br>serving the communities of the Palouse since
1994.<br>http://www.fsr.net<br>mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com<br>=======================================================<br><br>_________________________________________________________________<br>Check the weather nationwide with MSN Search: Try it now!<br>http://search.msn.com/results.aspx?q=weather&FORM=WLMTAG<br><br>=======================================================<br>List services made available by First Step Internet,<br>serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.<br>http://www.fsr.net<br>mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com<br>=======================================================<br><br><br><br>---------------------------------<br><br>=== message truncated ===</kjajmix1></betsyd></donovanjarnold2005></blockquote><br><p> 
<hr size=1>Talk is cheap. Use Yahoo! Messenger to make PC-to-Phone calls. <a href="http://us.rd.yahoo.com/mail_us/taglines/postman7/*http://us.rd.yahoo.com/evt=39666/*http://messenger.yahoo.com"> Great rates starting at 1¢/min.