"The pledge does amount to state sponsored promotion of a specific form or religion." Ted Moffett.<br> <br> Ted which specific religion does it promote?<br> <br> I do not understand why this is such a big deal. If you do not believe in God so what. I don't believe in the Easter Bunny, Santa Claus, or little Leprechauns. But you don't see me out there smashing the fun and whatever others get out of it, do you? Who cares, really, if there is no God, it won't hurt to let others say His/Her/Its name?<br> <br> Second, it isn't asking you to believe in God, or that you pledge allegiance to a God, it isn't even saying saying that God is real. It is simply making a statement that it is under God, real of fiction. Does Rudolph pull Santa's slay, or are we going to argue that he doesn't because the slay and the man he is pulling really doesn't exist? Regardless of your belief in Santa, everybody knows that Rudolph has a shiny nose and Santa asked him to guide his slay
on Christmas Eve night. And everybody knows that God is above all things, people, and nations, real of imaginary. Apollo is the Sun God, I can say that, even though I personally believe he doesn't exist. <br> <br> Do you agree with everything else in the pledge? Do you believe that it is one nation? A nation being one group of people with a shared culture, religion or ethnic background? I should say that is also a false statement. What about truth? Does the US ever lie? Is it always truthful, Ted? Another false statement. How about, "Liberty and justice for all". Do you believe that the US gives liberty and justice for all? Do you Ted? No, so if we want to start ripping apart the pledge, and excluding statements we feel are not true, we would not have a pledge anymore would we?<br> <br> The pledge is simply meant as tool to pull us together, instill pride and a commonality among all peoples in the United States, regardless of who or what we claim to be.
There is no one statement, no one sentence, no words in which all peoples in this country will agree. But we can all generally agree what this country is suppose to be, or should be, a good nation that is dedicated to doing what is right, together, as one for everyone. <br> <br> Best,<br> <br> _DJA<br> <br> <br> <br> <br><b><i>Ted Moffett <starbliss@gmail.com></i></b> wrote:<blockquote class="replbq" style="border-left: 2px solid rgb(16, 16, 255); margin-left: 5px; padding-left: 5px;"> <div>Donovan et. al.</div> <div> </div> <div><a href="http://www.aclunc.org/opinion/020903-pledge.html">http://www.aclunc.org/opinion/020903-pledge.html</a></div> <div> </div> <div>In adding "under God" to the Pledge of Allegiance in 1954, Congress intended to put religion in public school. As President Eisenhower said in signing the law, from "this day forward, the millions of our schoolchildren will daily proclaim, in every city and town, every
village and rural schoolhouse, the dedication of our nation and our people to the Almighty." Since students were praying daily in many public schools, the new Pledge language was not subject to an immediate constitutional challenge. Courts had not yet recognized the rights of minority faiths to be free of religious coercion in public schools. </div> <div>--------------------------------</div> <div>I recall in a 5th grade public school in North Carolina in 1961 starting every school day with the Lord's prayer... The pledge of allegiance's "under God" phrase was then a minor issue!</div> <div> </div> <div>The words "In God We Trust" on currency are not a pledge that I am compelled to recite with my hand over my heart. The pledge of allegiance is, or was when I was in the public school system. </div> <div> </div> <div>The out for those who defend the pledge of allegiance with the words "under God" continuing in public schools,
despite the apparent state promotion of specific religious beliefs (monotheism over the State), is that any student can refuse to recite it without being officially compelled to conform, or officially punished. The student can legally opt out of saying the pledge. It is not "forced" on any student, technically speaking. </div> <div> </div> <div>The pledge, to be more religiously broad, might read "under whatever God, Gods, Goddesses or other forms of spiritual beings or powers, or the lack of them, that prevail" to avoid state promotion of specific forms of religious belief, but this is cumbersome and wordy for a pledge. And the reason the words "under God" were placed in the pledge during the 1950s was not to be open minded about including different religious beliefs, but to send a specific message to the atheists of the godless Communist Soviet Union, and other communist nations, that the USA was a nation under God,
a specific sort of God. The words "under God" added to the pledge are thus a legacy of cold war politics. </div> <div> </div> <div>I find the argument that the words "under God" are spiritually generic, and can refer to all forms of spiritual belief, and thus are not state endorsement of a specific religion, disingenuous. I heard this exact argument from a federal lawyer working in the federal court in Boise, a lawyer who knew the justices involved in the 9th US Circuit Court who ruled that the pledge's "under God" was unconstitutional. </div> <div> </div> <div>Given the pressures young students face to be popular, accepted, to conform to the dominant values of their peers and adult leaders, odds are many students will recite the pledge anyway, even if they object, or don't understand the meaning of the words they parrot. </div> <div> </div> <div>The pledge does amount to state
sponsored promotion of a specific form or religion.</div> <div> </div> <div>Ted Moffett</div> <div> </div> <div> </div> <div><br><br> </div> <div><span class="gmail_quote">On 9/11/06, <b class="gmail_sendername">Donovan Arnold</b> <<a href="mailto:donovanjarnold2005@yahoo.com">donovanjarnold2005@yahoo.com</a>> wrote:</span> <blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;"> <div>More BAD NEWS for people that are offended by the word "GOD" being incorporated into the state. It is now also on some of your printed currency. That is right, George Bush is having the words "In God we Trust" printed on your money. He is violating the constitutional separation of Church and State, AGAIN! <br><br>You can protest this violation of separation of church and state, and tell GEORGE BUSH, NO, by looking through all your coins and bills and sending every one of those
unconstitutionally BUSH branded with this religious propaganda to me. <br><br>Every dollar I raise will be a petition to the US Congress on how much you disagree with BUSH and his forcing of religion on the people. <br> <br><br>Please send this unconstitutional BUSH currency to:<br><br>Donovan Arnold <br>325 Main Street<br>Moscow, ID, 83843<br><br><br>Best,<br><br>_DJA</div> <div><span class="e" id="q_10d9ce26a0631af5_1"><br><br><b><i>Paul Rumelhart <<a onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)" href="mailto:godshatter@yahoo.com" target="_blank">godshatter@yahoo.com</a>></i> </b> wrote: <blockquote style="border-left: 2px solid rgb(16, 16, 255); padding-left: 5px; margin-left: 5px;">I'd rather just fight this thing from a religious equality angle. I, personally, could care less if it's idolatry or not. I'm more-or-less a pagan (it's complicated), and the term "God" appears to mean the judaeo-christian "God" and not just any
old "god". I don't like the implication that our nation is "under God" in that sense, especially when we're forcing our children to recite it at school like some kind of 1984-esque loyalty pledge. It sounds too much like brain-washing to me, anyway. <br><br>I don't understand why Christians care so much about those two words belonging in the Pledge, especially in a country with express freedom of religion and that was built in part by people who were escaping religious persecution and who wanted to ensure that the same thing didn't happen to future generations. <br><br>Paul<br><br>Taro Tanaka wrote: <blockquote cite="http://midBAY123-F5531C9519620D378B517E88350@phx.gbl" type="cite"><pre>Sins can be committed in ignorance, and the fact that they were committed in <br>ignorance doesn't cause the sin to just disappear, but God in His mercy does <br><br>cut us all a great deal of slack for our manifold sins committed in <br>ignorance. At the same time,
the effects of sins committed in ignorance <br>don't just magically disappear, and when we start to feel those effects <br><br>strongly enough, sometimes we put two and two together and realize we have <br>an issue that we need to repent of.<br><br>-- Princess Sushitushi<br><br>"keely emerinemix" <a onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)" href="mailto:kjajmix1@msn.com" target="_blank"><br><kjajmix1@msn.com></a> wrote:<br><br> </pre> <blockquote type="cite"><pre>I would not say that a Christian who does recite the pledge is<br> committing <br>idolatry; I am saying that I would be if I were to violate my own <br>conscience in this matter.<br> </pre></blockquote><pre><br>_________________________________________________________________<br>Express yourself instantly with MSN Messenger! Download today it's FREE! <br><br><a onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)" href="http://messenger.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200471ave/direct/01/"
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