Saundra,<br> <br> Stop twisting everything people say and believe into something they didn't say or believe.<br> <br> I know very well that birds do suffer. I did not say they didn't. I said that they DID NOT SUFFER <span style="text-decoration: underline; font-weight: bold; color: rgb(0, 0, 255);">AS MUCH </span>AS AN ABORTED FETUS.<br> <br> Is that clear? Is that a hard concept to understand? I don't think it is. <br> <br> Situation ONE: A fetus has its head popped off and sucked up a tube. <br> <br> Situation TWO: A bird is force fed. <br> <br> Which do think is MORE painful? Head popping off human fetus, or a bird getting a tube down its throat.<br> <br> If you are confused as to which would be more painful, TRY BOTH and let us know.<br> <br> "And, these individual sentient beings are absolutely needlessly subjected to<br> *their* pain and suffering and terror over and over and over and over again."<br> <br> Actually, they are only forced fed for the
last 15-18 days of their life, the rest the time they roam freely on open ranges. Chickens, pigs, cattle, fish, and other creatures suffer for an even longer period of time and under greater cruel circumstances. These animals are sold everywhere in Moscow and around the world, even at the Co-Op.<br> <br> Saundra, you know, as well as I that you are not concerned about a duck who dies from liver illness three days prior to being slaughtered anyway. You care about making more trouble for ANYONE who is remotely connected to Doug Wilson. It is time for you go find another hobby and stop dragging and manipulating young college students with good intentions into your hidden agendas with sinister intentions. <br> <br> Best,<br> <br> _DJA<br><br><b><i>Saundra Lund <sslund@adelphia.net></i></b> wrote:<blockquote class="replbq" style="border-left: 2px solid rgb(16, 16, 255); margin-left: 5px; padding-left: 5px;"> Visionaries:<br><br>I swore I wasn't going to
get sucked into any more ridiculous discussions<br>with Donovan's disingenuous posts, and I'm not.<br><br>I will, however, say I'm disappointed in -- but not surprised by --<br>Donovan's selective quoting. The very next sentence in the Wikipedia<br>article Donovan selectively quoted is:<br>"The committee did not observe any signs that animals appreciated being<br>force fed, and observed that ducks attempted to move away when their feeder<br>entered the room."<br><br>I'll state the obvious that apparently escapes Donovan: one doesn't need to<br>look at blood hormones to know that the ducks & geese used in foie gras<br>production suffer. The *simple* physiological evidence is clear: they<br>struggle to get away, they vomit, they die in the forced feeding process.<br>This is something simple observation documents. The heart and respiration<br>rates show changes that indicate physiological stress/pain.<br><br>And, these individual sentient beings are absolutely
needlessly subjected to<br>*their* pain and suffering and terror over and over and over and over again.<br><br>Given the extensive education Donovan claims, it is shocking to me that he's<br>trying to deny something so obvious as the suffering inherent in the<br>"production" of foie gras. I can certainly understand that some people just<br>don't know what's involved in foie gras production, but it is beyond me what<br>Donovan hopes to accomplish by minimizing and denying the very real and<br>repeated suffering clearly experienced by these sentient beings.<br><br><br>Saundra Lund<br>Moscow, ID<br><br>The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good people to do<br>nothing.<br>- Edmund Burke<br><br>***** Original material contained herein is Copyright 2006, Saundra Lund.<br>Do not copy, forward, excerpt, or reproduce outside the Vision 2020 forum<br>without the express written permission of the author.*****<br><br><br><br>-----Original Message-----<br>From:
Donovan Arnold [mailto:donovanjarnold2005@yahoo.com] <br>Sent: Sunday, August 27, 2006 2:21 PM<br>To: Saundra Lund; vision2020@moscow.com<br>Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Fwd: Is there a correlation between "Fore<br>Gras"Killing Babies!<br><br>Saundra,<br><br><br>You huffed:<br><br><br>"That is flatly untrue. The only rational response to such nonsense is:<br>cite your sources, Donovan."<br><br><br>In response to my statement:<br><br><br>"In fact, there is more physiological scientifically conclusive evidence<br>that a fetus experiencing an abortion feels more pain and stress than that<br>of a duck being forced fed."<br><br>I have done my research to bad you cannot conduct some yourself,<br><br><br><br>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foie_gras<br> In regards to forced feeding:<br><br><br>"The EU (European Union) committee carried out several tests designed to<br>detect pain or distress by looking at blood hormones and all of them were<br>inconclusive or without any measurable
difference to similarly raised<br>animals."<br> <br>http://www.cirp.org/library/pain/anand/<br> In regards to pain felt by a fetus:<br><br><br>"Numerous lines of evidence suggest that even in the human fetus, pain<br>pathways as well as cortical and subcortical centers necessary for pain<br>perception are well developed late in gestation, and the neurochemical<br>systems now known to be associated with pain transmission and modulation are<br>intact and functional. Physiologic responses to painful stimuli have been<br>well documented in neonates of various gestational ages and are reflected in<br>hormonal, metabolic, and cardiorespiratory changes similar to but greater<br>than those observed in adult subjects."<br><br><br>Fetuses feel more pain when their heads pop off during an abortion procedure<br>than a goose or duck during the time that the animal is being fed. That is<br>scientifically documented.<br> <br><br>Best,<br><br><br>_DJA<br><br><br><br>Saundra Lund <sslund
@adelphia.net=""> wrote:<br><br> Donovan Arnold wrote:<br> "In fact, there is more physiological scientifically conclusive<br>evidence<br> that a fetus experiencing an abortion feels more pain and stress<br>than that<br> of a duck being forced fed."<br> <br> That is flatly untrue. The only rational response to such nonsense<br>is:<br> cite your sources, Donovan.<br> <br> <br> Saundra Lund<br> Moscow, ID<br> <br> The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good people<br>to do<br> nothing.<br> - Edmund Burke<br> <br> ***** Original material contained herein is Copyright 2006, Saundra<br>Lund.<br> Do not copy, forward, excerpt, or reproduce outside the Vision 2020<br>forum<br> without the express written permission of the author.***** <br> <br> <br> =======================================================<br> List services made available by First Step Internet, <br> serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994. <br> http://www.fsr.net <br>
mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com<br> =======================================================<br> <br><br><br>________________________________<br><br>Do you Yahoo!?<br>Everyone is raving about the all-new Yahoo! Mail.<br><http: //us.rd.yahoo.com/evt="42297/*http://advision.webevents.yahoo.com/mailb<br">eta> <br><br><br>=======================================================<br> List services made available by First Step Internet, <br> serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994. <br> http://www.fsr.net <br> mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com<br>=======================================================<br></http:></sslund></blockquote><br><p> 
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