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<DIV><FONT size=4>Paul,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4>Current thinking on cosmology and many other frontiers of
science can be found in <EM>New Scientist</EM>, published weekly. It is
well written and makes difficult subjects at least partially available to the
layman. Some of the articles can be accessed at <A
href="http://www.newscientist.com/home.ns">http://www.newscientist.com/home.ns</A>
without a subscription to the magazine.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4>W.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message -----
<DIV style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; font-color: black"><B>From:</B> <A
title=godshatter@yahoo.com href="mailto:godshatter@yahoo.com">Paul Rumelhart</A>
</DIV>
<DIV><B>To:</B> <A title=vision2020@moscow.com
href="mailto:vision2020@moscow.com">vision2020@moscow.com</A> </DIV>
<DIV><B>Sent:</B> Monday, August 14, 2006 10:34 PM</DIV>
<DIV><B>Subject:</B> Re: [Vision2020] String Theory</DIV></DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>I must admit I've never had the opportunity to study this.
I've heard it has something to do with eleven dimensions, but I could be
thinking of something else.<BR><BR>I have enough trouble with Special and
General Relativity, let alone String Theory or even Quantum Mechanics.<BR><BR>I
guess I need to find a book on it. It's on my list of topics to learn
about, right behind dark matter and dark energy.<BR><BR>I'm currently rereading
Sagan's Cosmos for nostalgia. I have Bohm's The Undiveded Universe; I plan
to try to work my way through that next.<BR><BR>Paul<BR><BR>P.S. Does
anyone know what the current thinking is about whether the universe is Open or
Closed? Or have a good reference on dark matter or dark energy that isn't
too technical? My math classes were a couple of decades ago.<BR><BR>Ted
Moffett wrote:
<BLOCKQUOTE cite=midd03f69e0608142119k5accf28cy779d6516f581dc08@mail.gmail.com
type="cite">
<DIV>All-</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>To have this discussion with no reference to Super String Theory (did I
miss it?) is like discussing</DIV>
<DIV>genetic advances in medicine ignoring stem cells:</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><A href="http://www.mkaku.org/">http://www.mkaku.org/</A></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>----</DIV>
<DIV>Ted Moffett</DIV>
<DIV><BR><BR> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=gmail_quote>On 8/14/06, <B class=gmail_sendername>Tony
Simpson</B> <<A
href="mailto:tonytime@clearwire.net">tonytime@clearwire.net</A>>
wrote:</SPAN>
<BLOCKQUOTE class=gmail_quote
style="PADDING-LEFT: 1ex; MARGIN: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; BORDER-LEFT: rgb(204,204,204) 1px solid">
<DIV>
<DIV text="#000000" bgcolor="#ffffff">
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Paul,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Time did not exist before the Big Bang?
Why not? Is not time simply a human construct? A method by which
we reference one incident in relation to another?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>The Big Bang the start of "space time"?
What is Space time? My understanding of the theory is that all
existing matter in the universe existed in a very dense state at one
particular point in, mind you, an endless void stretching in all
directions. Then, BANG it explodes outward and to this day, continues
to expand. Presumably at some point the expansion will slow, stop and
then reverse eventuating in another dense collection which would then re
explode over and over..... </FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Well.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Problem is, if the universe is without end at
all, how could something without ANY perimeter, expand or contract at
all? One could theorize that the universe is endless in all
directions, but that the matter we view in its varied forms only exists in
our relatively immediate vicinity. Then there would be a perimeter
providing a point of reference for an expansion or contraction. But
what of the void which extends, presumably in all directions without
end? Why would there be a small collection of matter at this
particular vicinity and not scattered about infinitely as well? Is
there some other form of matter or void that we haven't the capacity to
conceive of? And in an infinite expanse filled with an infinite array
of matter, must there not also be an infinite variety of life forms
scattered about it? How could there not? We are talking of an
infinite universe WITHOUT a perimeter. Without any fixed point from
which to reference from. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>I don't anticipate learning the answers to
these questions in this lifetime, but it would be fascinating, would it
not? For there ARE answers. There must be. Would our
minds be capable, from their limited frame of reference, of grasping those
answers? </FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>This post risks becoming as endless as the
universe itself, so g'nite all.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Happy contemplating,
--Tony</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: rgb(0,0,0) 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV
style="FONT: 10pt arial; font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch: normal">-----
Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND: rgb(228,228,228) 0% 50%; FONT: 10pt arial; font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch: normal; moz-background-clip: initial; moz-background-origin: initial; moz-background-inline-policy: initial"><B>From:</B>
<A title=godshatter@yahoo.com
onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)"
href="mailto:godshatter@yahoo.com" target=_blank>Paul Rumelhart</A> </DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT: 10pt arial; font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch: normal"><B>To:</B>
<A title=vision2020@moscow.com
onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)"
href="mailto:vision2020@moscow.com"
target=_blank>vision2020@moscow.com</A> </DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT: 10pt arial; font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch: normal"><B>Sent:</B>
Friday, August 11, 2006 6:40 PM</DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT: 10pt arial; font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch: normal"><B>Subject:</B>
Re: [Vision2020] You might be a real American</DIV>
<DIV><BR> </DIV>The Big Bang, from what I understand, was the start
of spacetime, not just space. Time did not exist before the Big
Bang, so it makes no sense to ask what happened before it. The
commonly used analogous question is: "what is north of the North Pole?"
<BR><BR>And, yes, I don't think we'll ever really know the answer to such
questions. All we can do is study the world around us, hypothesize,
make predictions, and see if our guesses hold up to scrutiny and
observable evidence. <BR><BR>Paul<BR><BR>Tony Simpson wrote:
<BLOCKQUOTE cite=http://mid013101c6bd72$8da610f0$298ae942@simpson
type="cite">
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Just curious Paul, <FONT
face="Times New Roman" size=3>What happened 20 minutes before the big
bang? There can not have been a beginning, could there?
Something, in some form must have preceded it... certainly at
least empty space existed. </FONT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Isn't it a little silly of us to think we can ever answer such
questions?</DIV>
<DIV>--T----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: rgb(0,0,0) 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND: rgb(228,228,228) 0% 50%; FONT: 10pt arial; font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch: normal; moz-background-clip: initial; moz-background-origin: initial; moz-background-inline-policy: initial"><B>From:</B>
<A title=godshatter@yahoo.com
onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)"
href="mailto:godshatter@yahoo.com" target=_blank>Paul Rumelhart</A>
</DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT: 10pt arial; font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch: normal"><B>To:</B>
<A title=vision2020@moscow.com
onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)"
href="mailto:vision2020@moscow.com"
target=_blank>vision2020@moscow.com</A> </DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT: 10pt arial; font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch: normal"><B>Sent:</B>
Thursday, August 10, 2006 9:02 PM</DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT: 10pt arial; font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch: normal"><B>Subject:</B>
Re: [Vision2020] You might be a real American</DIV>
<DIV><BR> </DIV>Unfortunately, the evidence seems to point
towards the Big Bang. The ratio of hydrogen to helium in the
observable universe can be calculated based on the conditions that the
universe would have had within the first five minutes of the Big Bang
with a fairly good degree of accuracy. The light that was being
scattered all around by un-attached electrons and protons was
predicted to have suddenly been able to shine out in a massive wave
once the universe cooled to the right amount (about 300,000 years
after the Big B) and the scattered electrons, protons, and neutrons
combined together and stopped bouncing the light every which
way. It was predicted that we would be able to observe this wave
of light, highly red-shifted, once our technology got better. It
was observed and was named the Cosmic Microwave Background radiation
(CMB). Observed galaxies were more red-shifted the farther away
they were, which matched the theory. Young baby galaxies are
found mostly on the fringes of the universe, which you would expect
based on the theory. Small variations in the CMB were predicted
because our galaxies could not have clumped together otherwise.
These variations were eventually found. The theory is consistent
with General Relativity. There is no evidence for anything being
older than 20 billion years, so if the universe had no beginning, why
don't we see things older than that? There are others, I'm
sure. I'm not a cosmologist, just interested in the subject
matter. <BR><BR>Anyway, I'll leave Science to study the What, When,
Where and How of the universe. Theology can have Who and
Why.<BR><BR>Paul<BR><BR>g. crabtree wrote:
<BLOCKQUOTE cite=http://mid001c01c6bcf0$a08d5e30$6401a8c0@gmc
type="cite"><PRE>All of creation the result of a sudden "big bang," the result of nobody
knows what or everything the result of an omnipotent Creator. Both seem
improbable but if I have to pick one, I like the idea of a benevolent, if
somewhat inscrutable God. I know for an absolute fact from youthful
experimentation that large explosions don't love me. (I'm mighty fond of
them, however. Talk about your unrequited affection.)
gc
----- Original Message -----
From: "Matt Decker" <A onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)" href="mailto:mattd2107@hotmail.com" target=_blank><mattd2107@hotmail.com></A>
To: <A onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)" href="mailto:deco@moscow.com" target=_blank><deco@moscow.com></A>; <A onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)" href="mailto:vision2020@moscow.com" target=_blank>
<vision2020@moscow.com></A>
Sent: Thursday, August 10, 2006 7:21 PM
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] You might be a real American
</PRE>
<BLOCKQUOTE type="cite"><PRE>W,
So according to you, anyone who has a tiny bit of religous faith in them
is
pathetically weak? Man I guess the billions that live in this world who
have
that faith are weak. Heck I tend to think one who can live their life
with
that belief of an unproven higher being as their creator, as more stronger
than one who can't even fathom that maybe, just maybe something is out
there.
Matt
</PRE>
<BLOCKQUOTE type="cite"><PRE>From: "Art Deco" <A onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)" href="mailto:deco@moscow.com" target=_blank><deco@moscow.com></A>
To: "Vision 2020" <A onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)" href="mailto:vision2020@moscow.com" target=_blank><vision2020@moscow.com></A>
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] You might be a real American
Date: Thu, 10 Aug 2006 16:46:03 -0700
Dick,
Again your ignorance is appalling.
I am a nonbeliever (not an atheist) which means that I believe the
evidence
purporting to establish supernatural claims including religious ones is
such that the probability of the truth of any such claim is very close to
zero. I remain open to new, verifiable evidence on the subject. The
evidence given by the state of the world today is greatly against the
existence of a benevolent, powerful deity. If such a state is evidence of
a deity, it is evidence of a sadistic, bumbling one. Any fool who reads
the news can see this. But you are not just any fool, you are a special
one.
I am sorry that you are so pathetically weak that you cannot live
comfortably without your religious fantasies -- some of which appear to be
crueler than those of Hitler.
W.
----- Original Message -----
From: Dick Sherwin
To: Vision2020 ; Art Deco
Sent: Thursday, August 10, 2006 3:57 PM
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] You might be a real American
What is appaling to me is your total loyalty to the cult of atheism which
is little more than a religion of rejection of God.
----- Original Message -----
From: Art Deco
To: Vision 2020
Sent: Thursday, August 10, 2006 3:21 PM
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] You might be a real American
Your ignorance is appalling.
W.
----- Original Message -----
From: Dick Sherwin
To: Art Deco
Sent: Thursday, August 10, 2006 1:32 PM
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] You might be a real American
I do not condem Christianity, or consider it a cult. You have quoted
</PRE></BLOCKQUOTE><PRE>>from the Old Testament law, which was mitigated by Jesus through
</PRE>
<BLOCKQUOTE type="cite"><PRE>atonement.
Christians believe all sins not reiterated from the Old Testament to
the
New Testament were atoned for through the blood of Christ.
Sorry, your little rouse was for no effect, unless you can quote to me
</PRE></BLOCKQUOTE><PRE>>from the New Testament where these laws were carried forth from the OT.
</PRE>
<BLOCKQUOTE type="cite"><PRE> Dick S.
----- Original Message -----
From: Art Deco
To: Vision 2020
Sent: Thursday, August 10, 2006 9:24 AM
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] You might be a real American
Dick,
You write:
"I agree, everyone should have the right to worship as they believe,
so long as their religion does not preach death and destruction on others
because of their beliefs. "
Do you then roundly and unequivocally condemn the religious cult that
holds the following views?
W.
<A onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)" href="http://www.credenda.org/old/issues/vol3/magi3-9.htm" target=_blank>http://www.credenda.org/old/issues/vol3/magi3-9.htm</A>
"The civil magistrate is the minister of God to execute wrath on the
wrongdoer (Rom. 13:4). God has not left his civil minister without
guidance
on how to exercise his office. The Scriptures set forth clear standards of
judgment for many offenses. Capital crimes, for example, include
premeditated killing (murder), kidnapping, sorcery, bestiality, adultery,
homosexuality, and cursing one's parents..."
"In contemporary American jurisprudence, none of these offenses is
punishable by death, with the occasional exception of murder. The
magistrates have dispensed with God's standards of justice. Some
Christians
believe this is an improvement. They would be horrified to think that the
"harsh" penalties of the law should still be applied. Sometimes this is
the
result of the mistaken belief that the Old Testament has no further
application after the advent of Christ. This is an exegetical problem. Too
often, it is the result of a sinful view of the criminal. This sin is
called pity."
"If your brother, the son of your mother, your son or your daughter,
the wife of your bosom, or your friend who is as your own soul, secretly
entices you, saying, "Let us go and serve other gods,". . . you shall not
consent to him or listen to him, nor shall your eye pity him, nor shall
you
spare him or conceal him; but you shall surely kill him..." [Heresy:
Beware, ye not of the cult (including unconverted Jews)!]
"If two men fight together, and the wife of one draws near to rescue
her husband from the hand of the one attacking him, and puts out the hand
and seizes him by the genitals, then you shall cut off her hand; your eye
shall not pity her..."
God commands the judge to evaluate the crime rather than the
criminal.
If the crime is one for which God requires death, then death must be the
punishment. Your eye shall not pity. Neither is the repentance of the
accused relevant to the imposition of the sentence.
"Thus, the Bible teaches that pity is not an option where God has
decided the matter. The [civil] magistrate, God's minister, is to
faithfully execute justice according to God's standard, not man's... This
means that we must return to an obedience which confines pity within the
bounds which God has established for us."
----- Original Message -----
From: Dick Sherwin
To: Vision2020 ; Paul Rumelhart
Sent: Thursday, August 10, 2006 8:51 AM
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] You might be a real American
Paul Rumelhart wrote: "Your standards are too low. How about you
are
a True American if the ideas of freedom and liberty for all are important
to you? That includes the freedom to believe whatever religion you wish,
or none at all."
___________________________________________
Personally, I am a little weary of embracing the "whatever religion
you wish" syndrone. I agree, everyone should have the right to worship as
they believe, so long as their religion does not preach death and
destruction on others because of their beliefs. I am tired of the
so-called "Religion of Peace" and their attempts to acquire maximum kill
with their terrorist acts.
As I said in my original post,
"I believe this is apporpriate as well as accurate. I realize there
are those who don't believe in any of this but to them all I have to say
is, "Oh well!"
May God bless you, even if you don't believe in Him.
Dick S.
----- Original Message -----
From: Paul Rumelhart
To: Vision2020
Sent: Thursday, August 10, 2006 8:35 AM
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] You might be a real American
That's what it takes to be a True American? Not to be afraid to
show you are a christian? Not to burn the flag? To respect veterans and
your elders?
Well, I almost made it. I'm not christian, so apparently I can't
be
a True American. Wonderful.
Your standards are too low. How about you are a True American if
the ideas of freedom and liberty for all are important to you? That
includes the freedom to believe whatever religion you wish, or none at
all.
If you support the First Amendment, I would say you are on the path
to being a "True American". If you care for your rights and the rights of
others equally, I'd say you are a True American. If you get enraged when
politicians "game the system", you are a True American.
If you get angry when someone claims they are a "Patriot" when they
really mean that they blindly support the government or the status quo,
you
are a True American. Look up what it really means to be a Patriot
sometime. Start by imagining the courage it took for the Founding Fathers
to sign the Declaration of Independence and ponder what would have
happened
to each of them if the revolution had failed.
The true values of this country are getting lost in this
"Christians
- the World's Only Persecuted Majority" crap. What values that have
managed to squeak through that mess are wantonly being pulverised by
Corporate America. I'd say the truest sign of whether or not you are a
True American is if you have had it up to here with all the crap that has
happened in the last couple of decades.
Paul
Dick Sherwin wrote:
I believe this is apporpriate as well as accurate. I realize
there are those who don't believe in any of this but to them all I have to
say is, "Oh well!"
Dick S.
It is time to change from REDNECK humor to TRUE AMERICAN
Humor! Only I don't see it as Humor, but the correct way to LIVE YOUR
LIFE ! If you feel the same, pass this on to your True American
friends.
Ya'll know who ya' are...
You might be a TRUE AMERICAN if: It never occurred to you to
be
offended by the phrase, "One nation, under God."
You might be a TRUE AMERICAN if: You've never protested about
seeing the 10 Commandments posted in public places.
You might be a TRUE AMERICAN if: You still say "Christmas"
instead of "Winter Festival."
You might be a TRUE AMERICAN if: You bow your head when someone
prays.
You might be a TRUE AMERICAN if: You stand and place your hand
over your heart when they play the National Anthem.
You might be a TRUE AMERICAN if: You treat Viet Nam vets with
great respect, and always have.
You might be a TRUE AMERICAN if: You've never burned an
American
flag.
You might be a TRUE AMERICAN if: You know what you believe and
you aren't afraid to say so, no matter who is listening.
You might be a TRUE AMERICAN if: You respect your elders and
expect your kids to do the same.
You might be a TRUE AMERICAN if: You'd give your last dollar to
a friend.
If you got this email from me, it is because I believe that you,
like me, have just enough TRUE AMERICAN in you to have the same
beliefs as those talked about in this email.
God Bless the U S A ! and may the U.S.A. BEGIN TO PRAISE
AND
WORSHIP GOD the way we used to!!!
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