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Greetings:<br><br>
I would like to thank Keely for her post, also the one before about the
phony ranking of NSA. As I have said before, I judge Christians by
their conduct not for the details of their belief. Didn't Jesus
say: "By their fruits ye shall know them?" By this standard
Keely is a true Christian. Unfortunately, the conduct of many of
the area's conservative "Christians" is atrocious. Their
fruit is rotten.<br><br>
If I had more time, I would research all the various versions of
Christian atonement. (Forgive me if I'm a little rusty, but I took
my qualifying exams 34 years ago, and haven't ever taught systematic
theology, primarily because I was hired by a philosophy department.) I
doubt if any Christian has got atonement right, because the best
theologians have not agreed. And many of them do not accept the
idea of actual blood sacrifice. The Princess has admitted that
crucifixion is a bloodless form of execution, so I will let my case rest
on that obvious fact for now.<br><br>
If I hate Christianity, as the Princess claims, then why I am sponsoring,
with a substantial monthly stipend, an Indian Christian student for his
PhD? Why did I before that support another Indian Christian student
for his PhD in counseling? Why would I defend evangelical colleges
against Wilson's nasty criticisms of them?<br><br>
Also, I challenge anyone who reads my book <i>God, Reason, and the
Evangelicals</i> to then say that I hate Christianity. I own the
copyright and you can read it at
<a href="http://www.class.uidaho.edu/ngier/gre.htm" eudora="autourl">www.class.uidaho.edu/ngier/gre.htm</a>.
I praise many evangelical philosophers and theologians in that
book. <br><br>
I also repeat the observation made by several students, who after taking
my philosophy of religion class, thought that I was a Christian.
Someone on the list quipped that it is a sign of how deceptive I was, but
I was hoping that most of you would see it as the sign of how fair I was
to Christian theology. Wouldn't my "hatred" have somehow
shown through?<br><br>
Finally, because of the fact that my department did not have any travel
funds (they dried up in the late 1980s), I have was lucky to get a few
graduate school travel grants and a few humanities grants. So I
have financed most of my own research trips out of my own pocket.
That includes two sabbatical years in Denmark and two sabbaticals and one
other research trip to India. I have also paid for travel to most
of my regional and national conferences.<br><br>
Thank the gods for tax deductions for professional expenses! And
thanks to the Canadian government that my daughter will have almost full
funding for all the research that she does in her new job at the
University of Alberta. Her travel to Vienna for dissertation
research was fully funded by Duke University and her current research at
the Library of Congress and National Archives is financed by the Canadian
government.<br><br>
Thanks for letting me set the record straight.<br><br>
Nick Gier, the "Nutty Professor"<br><br>
I'm now switching to pecans, because they are supposed to lower LDLs the
best.<br><br>
<blockquote type=cite class=cite cite>That was well said. I agree
with 95% of what you say. I do have a problem<br>
with Nick Gier however. That is the fact he never misses a chance
to take a<br>
dig at Christianity or our culture. Oh sure, he professes to care
and to be<br>
ever so tolerant but after reading several of his posts it becomes
obvious<br>
that he is not.<br><br>
I know I should just ignore it and move on but his self-richetous banter
and<br>
bragging about all the places he has visited (likely at the expense of
the<br>
taxpayers), gets under my skin. I suppose we all have certain types
who are<br>
capable of lighting our fuse and Nick is that type to me. Maybe it
is<br>
because I have met so many like him who are in a position to pollute
young<br>
minds with their insolence toward God, country and all that is
good. (my<br>
opinion)<br><br>
I pray the stresses of your life lessen and allow you more freedom with
your<br>
time.<br><br>
Dick S.<br><br>
----- Original Message ----- <br>
From: "keely emerinemix" <kjajmix1@msn.com><br>
To: <tonytime@clearwire.net>; <sslund@adelphia.net><br>
Cc: <vision2020@moscow.com><br>
Sent: Monday, August 14, 2006 9:00 AM<br>
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Nick, Saundra and the Princess<br><br>
<br>
> As someone who owes her very life to Christ's atonement on the cross
-- <br>
yep,<br>
> body piercing saved my life! -- I have a few thoughts:<br>
><br>
> I've been staying out of this thread not because of disinterest --
some of<br>
> you may recall that I have rather strong views on religion -- but
because<br>
> I'm up to mine in alligators trying to coordinate the remodelling of
a<br>
> house, find a renter for our apartment, and accommodate yet another
wave<br>
of<br>
> houseguests. It's one of the few times in my life when I've
been too busy<br>
> to wade in to something that matters greatly to me. But before
the<br>
painter<br>
> requires my attention this morning, I'd like to make a few
points,<br>
provoked<br>
> as I am by Tony's response to Saundra, below.<br>
><br>
> It shouldn't come as a surprise to anyone that I am in near
total<br>
agreement<br>
> with the theology espoused by Princess LackingHuevos, who, in
his/her<br>
> anonymity, has done an able job of defending the classic,
orthodox<br>
Christian<br>
> doctrine of Christ's atonement on the cross. I could, however,
do without<br>
> the Princess' continued harangue toward my friend Nick Gier, who
doesn't<br>
> agree with the classic, orthodox Christian doctrine of
Christ's<br>
atonement -- <br>
> in fact, he finds it rather off-putting. Why this surprises,
much less<br>
> offends, the Princess would be puzzling were it not for said
royalty's<br>
> history of disrespect and rudeness toward those who hold to beliefs
he<br>
> doesn't, both from inside or outside of the fold. I think it's
clear to<br>
all<br>
> that while Sushitushi is an apt defender of the doctrines of the
faith,<br>
the<br>
> tone taken indicates that he/she is also a poor imitator of the One
those<br>
> doctrines point to.<br>
><br>
> Nick Gier isn't a Christian. That's not a judgment on my part;
it's not<br>
to<br>
> say that he's not kind, gracious, loving, gentle and merciful.
He is all<br>
of<br>
> those things, as are many people who don't claim Christ as their
Savior.<br>
> Those who call on the name of the Lord Jesus are rightfully counted
as<br>
> Christians, and those who don't, aren't. If Nick has made it
clear that<br>
he<br>
> has found satisfaction and solace in other faith traditions apart
from the<br>
> essential doctrines of Christianity, then why would anyone who
claims to<br>
be<br>
> a Christian take such a nasty approach in acknowledging their
doctrinal<br>
> differences? This isn't the pastor of First Evangelical
Christian<br>
Community<br>
> Tabernacle who's denying the historic teachings of the faith -- that
would<br>
> be worrisome -- but a scholar who is not a professing
Christian. Nick<br>
Gier<br>
> isn't an "enemy" who needs to be contained or
disarmed. He's a man who<br>
> believes that the things Sushitushi believes are lacking in
reason,<br>
> distasteful, or, for whatever reason, simply not for him.
There is<br>
nothing<br>
> about that that should invite snotty, mocking rejoinders from those
who do<br>
> believe. Nick and I are friends; he admires me and I admire
him, even as<br>
we<br>
> disagree on virtually every point of evangelical theology. God
forbid I<br>
> should attempt to assert my "rightness" apart from common
decency or<br>
> Spirit-filled righteousness.<br>
><br>
> Now, I don't know if the Princess is Doug Jones, Chris Witmer, Ben
Merkle<br>
or<br>
> any other leader or defender of the Kirk. I don't much
care. I do lament<br>
> that the Princess is unable to fairly and honestly belly up to the
bar by<br>
> using his/her real name, but I suppose it's tempting to want to
revel in<br>
> rudeness without the messy consequences of doing so without the
cloak of<br>
> anonymity. His arguments might be mature and well-thought out,
but it's a<br>
> little difficult to be swayed by someone who can't bring him/herself
to<br>
> using their given moniker. And I'm assuming it's someone from
the Kirk,<br>
> because of the fervor of support for the leadership and, sadly,
because of<br>
> the cogency of the argument -- most evangelical churches have not
raised<br>
an<br>
> army of able, apt defenders of the Gospel, and if they did, I
imagine<br>
they'd<br>
> be glowing with pride and unable to do so anonymously.<br>
><br>
> In my reading over the weekend, I came upon something that I think
puts it<br>
> all into context far better than I have, and will perhaps be a
benefit to<br>
> those who practice imprecatory prayer, are dismissive of their
theological<br>
> "enemies," and exalt classical academia over common
decency:<br>
><br>
> "Bless those who persecute you, don't curse them, pray that God
will bless<br>
> them. Be happy with those who are happy, and weep with those
who weep.<br>
> Live in harmony with each other. Don't be too proud to enjoy
the company<br>
of<br>
> ordinary people. And don't think you know it all! Never
pay back evil<br>
with<br>
> more evil. Do things in such a way that everyone can see you
are<br>
honorable.<br>
> Do all that you can to live in peace with everyone . . .
" (Romans<br>
> 12:14-18)<br>
><br>
> keely<br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
> From: "Tony Simpson" <tonytime@clearwire.net><br>
> To: "Saundra Lund" <sslund@adelphia.net><br>
> CC: vision2020@moscow.com<br>
> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] True Muslims and True Americans<br>
> Date: Mon, 14 Aug 2006 02:08:38 -0700<br>
><br>
> WOW SAUNDRA, you rail on for the bulk of your post at Taro Tanaka
without<br>
> ever ONCE addressing the very thoughtful arguments she
presented. What's<br>
> the problem Dear? Out of your intellectual league?<br>
><br>
> Fed up with the enemies of reason, --Tony<br>
> ----- Original Message -----<br>
> From: "Saundra Lund" <sslund@adelphia.net><br>
> To: <vision2020@moscow.com><br>
> Sent: Saturday, August 12, 2006 9:42 AM<br>
> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] True Muslims and True Americans<br>
><br>
><br>
> > "Taro Tankara" aka "Princess
Sushitushi" aka "Princess Camera-Shy" aka<br>
> > "Princess Who Rushes in Where Trespassers Fear to
Tread" aka "Prince<br>
Pay<br>
> > No<br>
> > Attention to the Man Behind the Curtain" aka
"Prince Late-for-Dinner"<br>
aka<br>
> > "Prince in One Hour or You Don't Pay!" aka
"Princess<br>
> > Putnotthytrustinprinces" aka "Prince Albasilas
Monachus" aka "The<br>
> Princess<br>
> > Formerly Known as Prince" aka "Prince
McPauper" aka "Princess<br>
Forlornia,<br>
> > Ever Hopeful Frog Kisser" aka "Shining Prince
Stanley Nicholson Genji"<br>
> aka<br>
> > "Prince Eduardo Cigarro" wrote:<br>
> > "I'm almost afraid to reply to Nick, because each
time he comes back<br>
with<br>
> > something nuttier than before."<br>
> ><br>
> > No, sorry -- that would be Taro Tanaka with the multitude
of alias,<br>
none<br>
> > of<br>
> > which are real names.<br>
> ><br>
> > This V2020 poster reminds me of one of the Edna's -- the
one who<br>
couldn't<br>
> > decide whether to post as a male or female.<br>
> ><br>
> > One who hasn't made the leap of faith to accept God's
grace might<br>
> conclude<br>
> > that it is Christianity, rather than cowards afraid to
sign their own<br>
> > names,<br>
> > that causes gender confusion ;-)<br>
> ><br>
> ><br>
> > JMHO,<br>
> > Saundra Lund<br>
> > Moscow, ID<br>
> ><br>
> > The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for
good people to<br>
do<br>
> > nothing.<br>
> > - Edmund Burke<br>
> ><br>
> > ***** Original material contained herein is Copyright
2006, Saundra<br>
Lund.<br>
> > Do not copy, forward, excerpt, or reproduce outside the
Vision 2020<br>
forum<br>
> > without the express written permission of the
author.*****<br>
> ><br>
> ><br>
> >
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<x-sigsep><p></x-sigsep>
<font size=2>"Truth is the summit of being; justice is the
application of it to human affairs."<br>
--Ralph Waldo Emerson<br><br>
"Abstract truth has no value unless it incarnates in human beings
who represent it, by proving their readiness to die for it."<br>
--Mohandas Gandhi<br><br>
"Modern physics has taught us that the nature of any system cannot
be discovered by dividing it into its component parts and studying each
part by itself. . . .We must keep our attention fixed on the whole and on
the interconnection between the parts. The same is true of our
intellectual life. It is impossible to make a clear cut between science,
religion, and art. The whole is never equal simply to the sum of its
various parts." --Ma</font><font size=1>x Planck<br><br>
</font>Nicholas F. Gier<br>
Professor Emeritus, Department of Philosophy, University of Idaho<br>
1037 Colt Rd., Moscow, ID 83843<br>
<a href="http://users.adelphia.net/~nickgier/home.htm" eudora="autourl">http://users.adelphia.net/~nickgier/home.htm</a><br>
208-882-9212/FAX 885-8950<br>
President, Idaho Federation of Teachers, AFL-CIO<br>
<a href="http://users.adelphia.net/~nickgier/ift.htm" eudora="autourl">http://users.adelphia.net/~nickgier/ift.htm</a><br><br>
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