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<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message -----
<DIV style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; font-color: black"><B>From:</B> <A
title=rvrcowboy@clearwire.net
href="mailto:rvrcowboy@clearwire.net">rvrcowboy</A> </DIV>
<DIV><B>To:</B> <A title=sunilramalingam@hotmail.com
href="mailto:sunilramalingam@hotmail.com">Sunil Ramalingam</A> </DIV>
<DIV><B>Sent:</B> Friday, July 14, 2006 9:32 AM</DIV>
<DIV><B>Subject:</B> Re: [Vision2020] The Keely Mix/Doug Wilson
Debate</DIV></DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Sunil,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>I will attempt to respond to your post, given the
limited time I have right now. It's honey-do day at my house and I am
trying to prepare for a clean up float trip on the Clearwater River
tomorrow.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>"We have adopted the Geneva Conventions, and are
obligated to follow them. It is irrelevant if those we fight have done
so." </FONT><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>I disagree with you on this point. While it
is true we have adopted the Geneva Conventions I do not believe we are obligated
to follow them when those we are fighting have not done so. That would be
tantamount to two football teams playing and one has agreed to follow the rules
and the other totally rejects all rules. It would be a slaughter. I
do believe we should be as civil as possible and that we should not engage in
torture. However, I do not define torture as sleep deprivation, water
boarding, etc. There is a difference between humane interrogation
techniques and torture.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>"We have our rules and we should follow
them."</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>The Geneva Convention is not a list of "our"
rules. It is an agreement between participating nations on humane
treatment of legally represented particpants from those nations. Again, to
play by any rules when one side has no rules at all is ridiculous. This
war is not aginst any participating nation, protected under the
convention. It is against radical, criminal, millitant terrorists who
owe alligence to no one and nothing but their own radical cause. In
such a case, I agree, we should be humane but no one should expect us to
sacrifice lives just to play by non-existent rules.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>"If we are there to establish democracy, we
do not further our stated cause by ignoring the rules we have
adopted."</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Again, we have not adopted, or agreed to, any rules
between ourselves and the criminal, militants, representing no country, we are
engaged with. I don't know where you would get such a crazy idea.
</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>"It only demonstrates that our political process
can be meaningless, and that lesson is clear to those who suffer when we
deviate from our rules and laws."</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>What about those who suffer because the other side
has rejected any rules at all? Those would be our soldiers who face
beheadding and torture if captured, along with others, even civilians.
Again, we are under no obligation to follow any rules, laws or agreements
between nations when we are fighting criminals from no nation.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>"If we are trying to establish a democracy, then we
need to win hearts and <BR>minds through the moral superiority of our
conduct."</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>I believe those who would live under a democracy
would rather see us win this war because we did what was necessary than lose it
because we played by some set of non-existent rules. Partly because they
will likely be killed if we fail. I think they are more worried
about loosing their lives than the "moral superiority of our
conduct." Their futures depend on reality, not some pretty sounding,
politically correct buzzwords.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>"Do you think the Administration's embrace of
torture and running secret prisons enhances our moral standing
anywhere?"</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>I have seen no evidence of our Administration
embracing the use of torture. As for secret prisons, this is war and it is
most likely a good thing to hold some high-level prisoners where they can not be
easily found and accessed. I doubt you would find much dissent with this
in the majority of the population.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>"Our government is supposed to answer to us; our
enemies do not, and I have no expectation of that."</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Ultimately, our government always answers to the
people, at the ballot box, which is where you should take up your
gripes.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>"But I have the right and responsibility to expect
my government to comply with our laws."</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>That may be so but first you have to PROVE the
government has broken any laws they were even legally bound to obey. So
far as I can tell, they haven't. Accusations and rhetoric do not a
criminal make. Public opinion will ultimately decide the issue at the
ballot box, where it should be decided.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>I hope I have answered to your satisfaction.
It is obvious we have a difference of opinion on the issues. So be
it. I am out of time, the dish water is getting cold.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Have a wonderful day,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Dick S.</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV></FONT>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2> </DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV></FONT>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>----- Original Message ----- </FONT>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>From: "Sunil Ramalingam" <</FONT><A
href="mailto:sunilramalingam@hotmail.com"><FONT face=Arial
size=2>sunilramalingam@hotmail.com</FONT></A><FONT face=Arial
size=2>></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>To: <</FONT><A
href="mailto:vision2020@moscow.com"><FONT face=Arial
size=2>vision2020@moscow.com</FONT></A><FONT face=Arial size=2>></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Sent: Friday, July 14, 2006 6:41 AM</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Subject: Re: [Vision2020] The Keely Mix/Doug Wilson
Debate</FONT></DIV></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial><BR><FONT size=2></FONT></FONT></DIV><FONT face=Arial
size=2>> Dick,<BR>> <BR>> I'll leave Nick to capably defend his
position, but I'll tell you why I <BR>> think we need to look at what WE
do.<BR>> <BR>> We have adopted the Geneva Conventions, and are obligated
to follow them. <BR>> It is irrelevant if those we fight have done
so. We have our rules and we <BR>> should follow them.<BR>> <BR>>
We now claim to be in Iraq to establish democracy. I myself think that
<BR>> claim is a crock, but that too is irrelevant right now. If we are
there to <BR>> establish democracy, we do not further our stated cause by
ignoring the <BR>> rules we have adopted. It only demonstrates that our
political process can <BR>> be meaningless, and that lesson is clear to those
who suffer when we deviate <BR>> from our rules and laws.<BR>> <BR>> If
we are trying to establish a democracy, then we need to win hearts and <BR>>
minds through the moral superiority of our conduct. > <BR>> Our
government is supposed to answer to us; our enemies do not, and I have <BR>>
no expectation of that. But I have the right and responsibility to expect
<BR>> my government to comply with our laws.<BR>> <BR>> Sunil<BR>>
<BR>> <BR>> >From: "rvrcowboy" <</FONT><A
href="mailto:rvrcowboy@clearwire.net"><FONT face=Arial
size=2>rvrcowboy@clearwire.net</FONT></A><FONT face=Arial size=2>><BR>>
>To: "Vision2020" <</FONT><A href="mailto:vision2020@moscow.com"><FONT
face=Arial size=2>vision2020@moscow.com</FONT></A><FONT face=Arial size=2>>,
<</FONT><A href="mailto:nickgier@adelphia.net"><FONT face=Arial
size=2>nickgier@adelphia.net</FONT></A><FONT face=Arial size=2>><BR>>
>Subject: Re: [Vision2020] The Keely Mix/Doug Wilson Debate<BR>> >Date:
Fri, 14 Jul 2006 05:36:52 -0700<BR>> ><BR>> >A direct quote from
Nick Gier: "I'm busy writing my commentary on the U.S.<BR>> >and
Torture (Preliminary title "Beheadings, Hoodings, and Water Boarding:<BR>>
>CIA Torture from Vietnam to Gitmo"),......."<BR>> ><BR>>
>Nick,<BR>> ><BR>> >I do not understand your passionate desire to
constantly denounce our<BR>> >troops, our military and our country, in
favor of the tactics of <BR>> >terrorists.<BR>> >We all understand
that, in a time of war and under pressure, people<BR>> >sometimes do
things they would not normally do. We also understand the <BR>>
>fact<BR>> >that, in the case of our soldiers and military, these times
are more rare<BR>> >than the standard of actions.<BR>> ><BR>>
>In a hypothetical scenerio, if you were a captured combatant; Would
you<BR>> >prefer to be a prisoner of war, held captive by any of the
Coalition <BR>> >forces,<BR>> >or, would you prefer to be a prisoner
of the extremist factions, operating<BR>> >under no rules of engagement
and no rules what-so-ever concerning the<BR>> >treatment of
prisoners? Is your commentary going to include some exposure<BR>>
>of the heinous tactics commonly employed by other side, or, are you
only<BR>> >interested in exposing the actions of the few, serving our own
country, who<BR>> >have made an error?<BR>> ><BR>> >I am not
questioning your right to your own opinions as to the war on<BR>>
>terrorism we presently find ourselves engaged in. I just do not
understand<BR>> >how you justify your endless criticisms of the very
country that affords <BR>> >you<BR>> >the freedom of dissent.
After all, as a university professor, you have<BR>> >enjoyed the
privileges of being an employee of the very government you<BR>> >appear to
be unable to tolerate. Can you honestly say you attitude would<BR>>
>not be different if Bill Clinton or John Kerry were President, as opposed
<BR>> >to<BR>> >George W. Bush? Under the same circumstances,
do you really believe their<BR>> >options would be any different?<BR>>
><BR>> >I would like to take the opportunity to apologize to you for
some of my <BR>> >past<BR>> >actions of calling you names and
condeming you for have a different <BR>> >opinion,<BR>> >from my
own. I would also like to assure you that I am asking these<BR>>
>questions in ernest and not to challenge your right to your opinions.
It <BR>> >is<BR>> >just difficult for me to understand why you
appear to support the enemies <BR>> >of<BR>> >our country more than
our own troops and your own country.<BR>> ><BR>> >Looking forward to
your reply and hoping you will not make it too long and<BR>> >too far over
my head for me to understand. :)<BR>> ><BR>> >Have a wonderful
day,<BR>> ><BR>> >Dick S.<BR>> <BR>> <BR>>
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