<html xmlns:v="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:vml" xmlns:o="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" xmlns:w="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:word" xmlns:x="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:excel" xmlns:st1="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" xmlns="http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-html40">
<head>
<META HTTP-EQUIV="Content-Type" CONTENT="text/html; charset=us-ascii">
<meta name=Generator content="Microsoft Word 11 (filtered medium)">
<o:SmartTagType namespaceuri="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags"
name="PlaceType"/>
<o:SmartTagType namespaceuri="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags"
name="PlaceName"/>
<o:SmartTagType namespaceuri="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags"
name="place"/>
<o:SmartTagType namespaceuri="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags"
name="City"/>
<o:SmartTagType namespaceuri="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags"
name="PersonName"/>
<!--[if !mso]>
<style>
st1\:*{behavior:url(#default#ieooui) }
</style>
<![endif]-->
<style>
<!--
/* Style Definitions */
p.MsoNormal, li.MsoNormal, div.MsoNormal
{margin:0in;
margin-bottom:.0001pt;
font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:"Times New Roman";}
h2
{mso-margin-top-alt:auto;
margin-right:0in;
mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;
margin-left:0in;
font-size:18.0pt;
font-family:"Times New Roman";}
a:link, span.MsoHyperlink
{color:blue;
text-decoration:underline;}
a:visited, span.MsoHyperlinkFollowed
{color:purple;
text-decoration:underline;}
span.EmailStyle17
{mso-style-type:personal-compose;
font-family:Arial;
color:windowtext;}
@page Section1
{size:8.5in 11.0in;
margin:1.0in 1.25in 1.0in 1.25in;}
div.Section1
{page:Section1;}
-->
</style>
<!--[if gte mso 9]><xml>
<o:shapedefaults v:ext="edit" spidmax="1027" />
</xml><![endif]--><!--[if gte mso 9]><xml>
<o:shapelayout v:ext="edit">
<o:idmap v:ext="edit" data="1" />
</o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]-->
</head>
<body lang=EN-US link=blue vlink=purple>
<div class=Section1>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=4 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
14.0pt'>Donavan,<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=4 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
14.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=4 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
14.0pt'>I’m not sure I understand your point. Are you disputing the factual
claims I made?<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=4 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
14.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=4 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
14.0pt'>Michael<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=4 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
14.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=4 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
14.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=4 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
14.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=4 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
14.0pt'>If you say so Michael. <br>
<br>
_DJA<br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'><br>
<b><i><span style='font-weight:bold;font-style:italic'>Michael
<metzler@moscow.com></span></i></b> wrote: <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'><O:SMARTTAGTYPE name="PlaceType" namespaceuri="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags"><O:SMARTTAGTYPE name="PlaceName" namespaceuri="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags"><O:SMARTTAGTYPE name="place" namespaceuri="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags"><O:SMARTTAGTYPE name="City" namespaceuri="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags"><O:SMARTTAGTYPE name="PersonName" namespaceuri="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags"></O:SMARTTAGTYPE></O:SMARTTAGTYPE></O:SMARTTAGTYPE></O:SMARTTAGTYPE></O:SMARTTAGTYPE>Donavan,<O:P></O:P><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'><O:P> </O:P><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>Most of my time enjoying charitable discourse with folks on Vision 2020
happened before I became a public critic of Doug Wilson. First, nobody
knew I was a Christian. Then, everyone knew I was a Christian but not a
kirker. Then everyone knew that I was a Christian and a kirker when I was
forced to defend Doug Wilson and <ST1:PLACE u1:st="on"><ST1:PLACENAME u1:st="on"><st1:place
w:st="on"><st1:PlaceName w:st="on">Christ</ST1:PLACENAME></st1:PlaceName> <ST1:PLACETYPE u1:st="on"><st1:PlaceType
w:st="on">Church</ST1:PLACETYPE></ST1:PLACE></st1:PlaceType></st1:place>.
Through all three stages I was able to enjoy rational and charitable
discussions with many on Vision 2020. And no doubt some local
conservative Christians feel no different than many ‘liberals’ here
on this list about your quote below. Given all this, I’m not sure
what your argument could be here. Feel free to further explain. I
hope you would be willing to respond a bit more to my note to you.<O:P></O:P><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'><O:P> </O:P><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>Thanks<O:P></O:P><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>Michael Metzler <O:P></O:P><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'><O:P> </O:P><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'><O:P> </O:P></span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>Michael,<O:P></O:P><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<h2><b><font size=5 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:18.0pt'>"The
Elders of <ST1:PLACE u1:st="on"><ST1:PLACENAME u1:st="on"><st1:place w:st="on"><st1:PlaceName
w:st="on">Christ</ST1:PLACENAME></st1:PlaceName> <ST1:PLACETYPE u1:st="on"><st1:PlaceType
w:st="on">Church</ST1:PLACETYPE></ST1:PLACE></st1:PlaceType></st1:place> Kick
Pooh Out"<O:P></O:P><o:p></o:p></span></font></b></h2>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'><br>
Liberals love you. <br>
<br>
<br>
Best Regards,<br>
<br>
_DJA<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<b><i><span style='font-weight:bold;font-style:italic'>Michael
<metzler@moscow.com></span></i></b> wrote: <O:P></O:P><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'><O:SMARTTAGTYPE name="place" namespaceuri="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags"><O:SMARTTAGTYPE name="City" namespaceuri="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags"><O:SMARTTAGTYPE name="PersonName" namespaceuri="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags"></O:SMARTTAGTYPE></O:SMARTTAGTYPE></O:SMARTTAGTYPE>Donavan
Writes:<O:P></O:P><O:P></O:P><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'><O:P> </O:P><O:P></O:P><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>The Liberal rules on Vision 2020 are simple and fair. If a liberal
expresses an opinion, and attacks you or a member of your family, that is fine.
If you attack back, respond, or explain yourself, you are resorting to
mudslinging and personal attacks. That is the way Vision2020 works now, it is
the way it has worked in the past, and it is the way it will work in the
future. . . .Vision 2020 is now just a pointless listserve for people with big
mouths and little brains to express disgust in others that differ from them.
Too bad, it could have been something special. Now it is just the Ghetto of the
Palouse.<O:P></O:P><O:P></O:P><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'><O:P> </O:P><O:P></O:P><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>Me:<O:P></O:P><O:P></O:P><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'><O:P> </O:P><O:P></O:P><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>Donavan, I wish you would respond to those you disagree with in a more
dignified, charitable, and argumentative way. There are
‘liberals’ that post to this list that are capable of doing this,
and they have done so many enjoyable times over. Considering that I am
just as ‘conservative’ as you, if not more so, and yet entirely
disagree with your assertions above, I would think that they require an
argument or some charitably placed supportive evidence. I really am
hoping that this list doesn’t entirely implode before I get a chance to enjoy
the discussions here again, and so I’m going to ask you Donovan, given
your profession of Christianity, to help lead the way; please respond to your
opponents with disciplined kindness. In so far as you want to assert what you
have above, I will challenge the veracity of your claims. I do not
believe this is asking much, and I hope you don’t take it as my asking
much; as you know, we are commanded to do this by the incarnate God to whom you
claim allegiance. I did not want to write a post like this, but I’m
not sure how I could continue my following of this list without expressing this
worry and exhortation. I think you have some good points that should be heard,
but they often get covered up by unnecessary rhetoric and personal attacks. If
this is done to you, then turn a cheek or something. Thank you. <O:P></O:P><O:P></O:P><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'><O:P> </O:P><O:P></O:P><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>Along these same lines, you might find the comments below applicable;
I’m pasted them from a recent entry on my own Blog.<O:P></O:P><O:P></O:P><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'><O:P> </O:P><O:P></O:P><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>Thanks<O:P></O:P><O:P></O:P><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>Michael<O:P></O:P><O:P></O:P><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'><a href="http://www.poohsthink.com/" title="http://www.poohsthink.com/">www.poohsthink.com</a>
<O:P></O:P><O:P></O:P><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'><O:P> </O:P><O:P></O:P><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>You can see <ST1:PLACE u2:st="on"><ST1:CITY u2:st="on"><ST1:CITY u1:st="on"><ST1:PLACE u1:st="on"><st1:place
w:st="on"><st1:City w:st="on">Wilson</ST1:PLACE></ST1:CITY></ST1:CITY></ST1:PLACE></st1:City></st1:place>’s
typical offensive move against the “intoleristas” <a
href="http://www.dougwils.com/index.asp?Action=Anchor&CategoryID=1&BlogID=2321"
target="_blank"
title="http://www.dougwils.com/index.asp?Action=Anchor&CategoryID=1&BlogID=2321"><strong><b><font
face="Times New Roman"
title="http://www.dougwils.com/index.asp?Action=Anchor&CategoryID=1&BlogID=2321">here</font></b></strong></a>.
<ST1:PLACE u2:st="on"><ST1:CITY u2:st="on"><ST1:CITY u1:st="on"><ST1:PLACE u1:st="on"><st1:place
w:st="on"><st1:City w:st="on">Wilson</ST1:PLACE></ST1:CITY></ST1:CITY></ST1:PLACE></st1:City></st1:place>’s
dishonesty in dealing with Vision 2020 and the “intoleristas” has
been pointed out here in the Wood a number of times already. In fact, it was my
own “taking a peek” at this Vision 2020 stuff that helped open my
own eyes to what kind of stuff Wilson fed us kirkers on a weekly basis. It has
been standard practice for Wilson to find the most poorly reasoned or <em><i><font
face="Times New Roman">prima facie </font></i></em>false statements uttered in
the last month out of hundreds of posts (from the standpoint of his followers
anyway) and display it on his blog for annihilation. The last time he did this,
he claimed that what he was presenting was the <em><i><font
face="Times New Roman">typical</font></i></em> sort of argument one would find
on Vision 2020, when in fact, which <ST1:PLACE u2:st="on"><ST1:CITY u2:st="on"><ST1:CITY u1:st="on"><ST1:PLACE u1:st="on"><st1:place
w:st="on"><st1:City w:st="on">Wilson</ST1:PLACE></ST1:CITY></ST1:CITY></ST1:PLACE></st1:City></st1:place>
knew, it was the most <em><i><font face="Times New Roman">untypical</font></i></em>.<O:P></O:P><O:P></O:P><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>For those of you who do not follow Vision 2020 carefully, let me give
you some basic facts about our little situation here in <ST1:PLACE u2:st="on"><ST1:CITY u2:st="on"><ST1:CITY u1:st="on"><ST1:PLACE u1:st="on"><st1:place
w:st="on"><st1:City w:st="on">Moscow</ST1:PLACE></ST1:CITY></ST1:CITY></ST1:PLACE></st1:City></st1:place>.
Many of the common posters to Vision 2020 have intellectual and argumentative
abilities that compare to, and in some ways, surpass, that of <ST1:PLACE u2:st="on"><ST1:CITY u2:st="on"><ST1:CITY u1:st="on"><ST1:PLACE u1:st="on"><st1:place
w:st="on"><st1:City w:st="on">Wilson</ST1:PLACE></ST1:CITY></ST1:CITY></ST1:PLACE></st1:City></st1:place>’s.
Some of them are highly rigorous, others more passionate, and others more
witty. When up against <ST1:PLACE u2:st="on"><ST1:CITY u2:st="on"><ST1:CITY u1:st="on"><ST1:PLACE u1:st="on"><st1:place
w:st="on"><st1:City w:st="on">Wilson</ST1:PLACE></ST1:CITY></ST1:CITY></ST1:PLACE></st1:City></st1:place>
one on one, I’m sure they would have an interesting fight. But what of
Jones? Jones got off Vision 2020 the day I got on, and what he was doing there
was silly and offensive; it was certainly no real match for the various
passionate intellects that frequent there. But a balanced analysis would not
compare Wilson and Jones to Vision 2020 posters in the first place. Not only
are Vision 2020 guys and gals mere “laymen” in contrast to the
fearless national leaders at Anselm House, they have all as a group been
ridiculed consistently and confidently by Wilson and other kirkers as blind,
venomous idiots who can do nothing but band together in secret to cook up the
next evil and irrational plot against Doug Wilson.<O:P></O:P><O:P></O:P><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>Well, have I mentioned anything yet about Doug Wilson being a liar?
Here is a perfect example of his deceit, deceit that I was lulled by for a
total of three years before joining the Vision 2020 group myself. Vision 2020
is primarily composed of all sorts of people, including conservatives,
liberals, secularists, agnostics, theists, conservative Christians, liberal
Christians, new Christians, old Christians, atheists, theists, deists, veterans,
lawyers, professors, writers, retired corporate folks, and so on and so forth.
In other words, it is composed of our local <ST1:PLACE u2:st="on"><ST1:CITY u2:st="on"><ST1:CITY u1:st="on"><ST1:PLACE u1:st="on"><st1:place
w:st="on"><st1:City w:st="on">Moscow</ST1:PLACE></ST1:CITY></ST1:CITY></ST1:PLACE></st1:City></st1:place>
neighbors. Only the growing “Village” paranoia that <ST1:CITY u2:st="on"><ST1:CITY u1:st="on"><st1:City
w:st="on">Wilson</ST1:CITY></ST1:CITY></st1:City> is seeking to generate causes
kirkers and <ST1:PLACE u2:st="on"><ST1:CITY u2:st="on"><ST1:CITY u1:st="on"><ST1:PLACE u1:st="on"><st1:place
w:st="on"><st1:City w:st="on">Wilson</ST1:PLACE></ST1:CITY></ST1:CITY></ST1:PLACE></st1:City></st1:place>’s
conservative sidekick <ST1:PERSONNAME u2:st="on"><ST1:PERSONNAME u1:st="on"><st1:PersonName
w:st="on">Dale Courtney</ST1:PERSONNAME></ST1:PERSONNAME></st1:PersonName> to
categorize and demonize “Venom2020” the way they do.<O:P></O:P><O:P></O:P><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>So to continue our comparison in a more balanced way, what of the
Greyfriar graduates who post on Vision 2020? or Mr. Farris? or what of the
purple flying-clown-elephant Deacon James? Any skim of Vision 2020 makes it
clear that some of the most non-argumentative, irrational, smug, arrogant,
unhelpful posts come directly out from the educated elite of the Kirk —
although I’ve noticed a slight change of late. Period; this is simply a
fact. One of the last Kirker posts to me on Vision 2020 had as its primary
thesis that I had failed to spell Greyfriars correctly. Another irrationally
hurled accusations at me, about 10 in three paragraphs in fact — and this
is to a fellow kirker! The question at this point folks, is not whether or not
the kirkers on Vision 2020 are displaying fine Christian culture — they
most certainly aren’t by any normal person’s definition of
“Christian” or “culture.” The question is rather what
social group here in <ST1:PLACE u2:st="on"><ST1:CITY u2:st="on"><ST1:CITY u1:st="on"><ST1:PLACE u1:st="on"><st1:place
w:st="on"><st1:City w:st="on">Moscow</ST1:PLACE></ST1:CITY></ST1:CITY></ST1:PLACE></st1:City></st1:place>,
based on the thin society of Vision 2020, truly deserves the label of
“venom” and “intolerista.” Furthermore, and this makes
Wilson’s last attack against the “intoleristas” today all the
more interesting, there has been a nice barrage of non-kirker conservatives,
conservative Christians in fact, seen on Vision 2020. And it looks like they
are currently trying to win the venom and intolerista award.<O:P></O:P><O:P></O:P><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>When I joined the discussion at Vision 2020 we began having delightful
discussions; I had rational and patient listening ears waiting for me, albeit
backed with passionate and argumentative fingertips. I was able to hash out my
defense of my own highly offensive view of things till the cows came home. But
unfortunately, the typical North Idaho community member does not take much
stock in passionate religious and political debate; <ST1:PLACE u2:st="on"><ST1:CITY u2:st="on"><ST1:CITY u1:st="on"><ST1:PLACE u1:st="on"><st1:place
w:st="on"><st1:City w:st="on">Wilson</ST1:PLACE></ST1:CITY></ST1:CITY></ST1:PLACE></st1:City></st1:place>
will no doubt play up on this, as will less daring local journalists and
politicians. One of the problems many folks will have with Vision 2020, whether
they are in or outside the Kirk, is the passionate and argumentative
persistence they will find there. Don’t let the newspapers fool you; some
journalists just pee in their pants when argumentatively challenged about their
daddy’s religion. For some, politics and religion are as hush hush as
their adultery with the woman next door. Who is it that despised Socrates? Who
killed both him and Jesus? It was both the politician and the local priest, and
may we never forget it.<O:P></O:P><O:P></O:P><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>When ever Dale is finished hiding behind his own Ultra-conserv blog,
perhaps he can join us on Vision 2020 again — it was after all his own
moral weakness that forced him to leave in the first place.<O:P></O:P><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<O:P></O:P>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
</body>
</html>