I fail to see how the United States Government, or any government for that matter, has proved itself so competent as to be given the power to kill its own citizens. <br> <br> _DJA<br><br><b><i>keely emerinemix <kjajmix1@msn.com></i></b> wrote:<blockquote class="replbq" style="border-left: 2px solid rgb(16, 16, 255); margin-left: 5px; padding-left: 5px;"> Good questions, Matt, and ones I've answered before, although perhaps not on <br>Vision.<br><br>1. With all of my heart, I would want to stay true to what I believe is <br>right -- even if the guy had done the most horrible things ever to my <br>family. My faith gives me the confidence of eternity, Matt -- I know I <br>would see them again, healed and whole. It also gives me the strength, as <br>yet untested, to cry out to God in my anger and despair and the strength to <br>also hold fast to what I believe, or, more important, Who I believe. I know <br>it would be a tremendous struggle; actually, I don't know
how much of a <br>struggle, having not ever dealt with that. But I do know that the grace of <br>God is sufficient for me, and that's what my faith is all about -- and any <br>nobility or courage or mercy I would show is evidence of him working within <br>me, not any virtue of my own. I know myself, and I would want to kill them <br>-- and I would plead that God deal with me with the mercy he wants to pour <br>out on the perpetrator.<br><br>2. I have said before that I am a "seamless garment" pro-lifer, meaning <br>that mine is a "seamless" belief -- the term refers to Christ's tunic, which <br>was traditionally thought to be woven without seams -- and so I think that <br>abortion is the taking of human life. I also oppose active euthanasia, the <br>death penalty, and, in most cases, war. But because I don't believe that <br>abortion is always, or even often, "murder," I am ambivalent about making <br>it illegal, particularly in the first trimester, when spontaneous
abortion <br>(miscarriage) is common enough to make prosecution not only more likely, but <br>much more abusive to the woman. There are ways of describing the taking of <br>a life that fall short of murder, by which I mean premeditated, intentional, <br>planned and with knowledge of right and wrong. We have involuntary <br>manslaughter, manslaughter, vehicular homicide, etc., none of which has any <br>difference in outcome -- someone dies -- but all of which have varying <br>degrees of culpability. (The Old Testament precedent for this is evident <br>in, for example, cities of refuge for those who commit manslaughter).<br><br>Now, I have a sense that Dale, ToeKnee, Dick, et al, are already having a <br>field day with my position -- and I couldn't care less. The only man who <br>can ever judge my or any other woman's position on abortion is Christ Jesus. <br> I have miscarried a pregnancy in the first trimester, when most women who <br>miscarry do, and the thought that
I would have had to produce some sort of <br>evidence that it was spontaneous, not provoked or sought out, is galling to <br>me. So is the hatred of women that some anti-abortion activists <br>demonstrate. No woman deserves to be hated for having made, or just <br>considering, a decision immeasurably more difficult than what any man has to <br>make. Far worse to me, of course, is the loss of what I consider to be <br>human life, but the feminist in me -- which, by the way, isn't at all <br>compromised by my position -- also deplores the horror visited upon women. <br>Not because of dubious links to breast cancer and cervical cancer, but <br>because a society that valued women and children would be a society in which <br>abortion is rare, women are supported and respected, children are embraced, <br>and irresponsible men are held to account. Check out the statements of some <br>of the turn-of-the-century suffragettes, many if not most of whom were <br>ardent feminists
who decried abortion as an afront to women and children. <br>(I used to be a member of Feminists for Life, but I felt they were getting a <br>little weird. I ought to check them out again . . . )<br><br>There you have it -- as usual, I'm quite shy about my opinions.<br><br>keely<br><br><br>From: "Matt Decker" <mattd2107 @hotmail.com=""><br>To: kjajmix1@msn.com, nickgier@adelphia.net, vision2020@moscow.com<br>Subject: RE: [Vision2020] Death Penalty Must Be Abolised<br>Date: Wed, 03 May 2006 21:06:08 -0700<br><br>Keely and Mr.Gier,<br><br>Two questions come to mind when reading your postings. 1. What would you <br>want if the most horrific crime was done to your loved ones.Keely lets say <br>your boys, or Mr. Gier your wife. Let's say they were raped, tortured, <br>mutilated, and killed. The evidence is 99 percent positive that the perp is <br>guilty. What then? Counciling and a waste of tax payers money? What about <br>when Bin Laden is captured? Hitler? Myself, I would
do worse then what he <br>deserves. If you have the ability to forgive this crime, well your a better <br>person then me.<br><br>2. How can one condone the death penalty, but not abortion? Well at least <br>late term abortion.<br><br>There is no question that mistakes are made. That I believe should be looked <br>at threw the Judical system, or lack of.<br><br>Matt<br><br><br>>From: "keely emerinemix" <kjajmix1 @msn.com=""><br>>To: nickgier@adelphia.net, vision2020@moscow.com<br>>Subject: RE: [Vision2020] Death Penalty Must Be Abolised<br>>Date: Wed, 03 May 2006 12:00:07 -0700<br>><br>>Thanks, Nick. Horrifying and fascinating, and just one example of why <br>>capital punishment must be done away with.<br>><br>>And for Christians who say that there's a biblical mandate for the taking <br>>of life as appropriate punishment for sin (remember, death by stoning <br>>wasn't just for murderers), I would point out the example of Jesus
Christ.<br>><br>>When the woman caught in the act of adultery -- in flagrante delicto, as I <br>>believe they would say at Logos -- he knew he could, within the law, <br>>encourage and participate in her death. He could have picked up a rock or <br>>two himself and cheered on the other punishers. He had the right, encoded <br>>into law for centuries. No one would have raised an eyebrow; plenty would <br>>have heaved the stones.<br>><br>>But he chose not to have her stoned. He chose to not invoke capital <br>>punishment. He didn't break the law, he rose above it. By inviting the <br>>sinless among the crowd to be the first to pick up stones, he, as the <br>>omniscient God, knew that none would and that she would be spared. Spared, <br>>it seems, for something better -- not only the forgiveness and absolution <br>>of her sins, but also as a living example of mercy and justice personified.<br>><br>>The story is not a
primer on criminal justice, nor is it intended to be. <br>>It doesn't discuss how other sinners and lawbreakers ought to be treated, <br>>and it doesn't lay out a grid whereby mercy can be plotted alongside <br>>justice. It simply shows that what I and others have called "the Third Way <br>>of the Cross" is the path that brings glory to God.<br>><br>>If Jesus could jettison the requirements of the law for a higher purpose -- <br>>ultimate justice and mercy -- then we who trust in him can no longer cling <br>>to an absolutism that delivers automatic death to those who commit the acts <br>>leading, by law, to capital punishment. Murder and treason are horrible, <br>>terrible acts, but a thinking approach to punishment, justice, <br>>rehabilitation, context and mercy best reflects the Author of the moral <br>>code Christians claim the country was founded on. Let's not employ a <br>>selective allegiance to him that requires that we
reach back to the Old <br>>Testament and brush Jesus away in our eagerness to extract "biblical <br>>justice" from the criminals and sinners in our midst.<br>><br>>keely<br>>(a pro-lifer even for the already-born)<br>><br>>From: nickgier@adelphia.net<br>>To: vision2020@moscow.com<br>>Subject: [Vision2020] Death Penalty Must Be Abolised<br>>Date: Wed, 3 May 2006 11:43:12 -0700<br>><br>>May 3, 2006, New York Times<br>><br>>Faulty Testimony Sent 2 to Death Row, Panel Finds<br>>By RALPH BLUMENTHAL<br>><br>>HOUSTON, May 2 — Faulty evidence masquerading as science sent two men to <br>>death row for arson in Texas and led to the execution of one of them, a <br>>panel of private fire investigators concluded in a report released Tuesday <br>>in Austin.<br>><br>>The report, prepared for the Innocence Project, a legal clinic dedicated to <br>>overturning wrongful convictions, was presented to a new state panel,
the <br>>Texas Forensic Science Commission, created by the Legislature last year to <br>>oversee the integrity of crime laboratories.<br>><br>>Barry C. Scheck, a co-director of the Innocence Project, said the report <br>>offered "important evidence of serious scientific negligence or misconduct <br>>in the investigations, reports and testimony of Texas state fire marshals" <br>>and called into question not just the two cases but also many others based <br>>on similar arson analyses.<br>><br>>The nine-member forensic panel, late to start up and as yet unfinanced, <br>>"will review it and investigate," said its chairwoman, Debbie Lynn <br>>Benningfield, a fingerprint expert and retired deputy administrator of the <br>>Houston Police Department's latent laboratory section.<br>><br>>The report examined prosecution arson testimony in the trials of two men: <br>>Ernest R. Willis, convicted of killing two women in a house fire in
1986 in <br>>Iraan, and Cameron T. Willingham, convicted of burning his home in <br>>Corsicana in 1992, killing his three young daughters.<br>><br>>Mr. Willingham was executed by lethal injection on Feb. 17, 2004, after <br>>Gov. Rick Perry rejected a plea for a last-minute stay, once the courts and <br>>the State Board of Pardons and Paroles had declined to intervene.<br>><br>>Mr. Willis was exonerated and pardoned on Oct. 6, 2004, and collected <br>>almost $430,000 for 17 years of wrongful imprisonment.<br>><br>>The report says that prosecution witnesses in both cases interpreted fire <br>>indicators like cracked glass and burn marks as evidence that the fires had <br>>been set, when more up-to-date technology shows that the indicators could <br>>just as well have signified an accidental fire. In one case, the signs were <br>>accepted as proof of guilt, the report said; in the other, they were <br>>discarded as
misleading.<br>><br>>"These two outcomes are mutually exclusive," Mr. Scheck said. "Willis <br>>cannot be found 'actually innocent' and Willingham executed based on the <br>>same scientific evidence."<br>><br>>Mr. Willingham's stepmother, Eugenia Willingham, who traveled to Austin <br>>from Ardmore, Okla., to attend a news conference about the report, said, <br>>"I've known it all along," adding, "I wish it could have happened before he <br>>was executed."<br>><br>>To analyze the evidence, the Innocence Project commissioned five unpaid <br>>experts: Douglas J. Carpenter of Combustion Science and Engineering in <br>>Columbia, Md.; Daniel L. Churchward of Kodiak Fire and Safety Consulting in <br>>Fort Wayne, Ind.; John J. Lentini of Applied Technical Services in <br>>Marietta, Ga.; Michael A. McKenzie of the law firm Cozen O'Connor in <br>>Atlanta; and David M. Smith of Associated Fire Consultants in Tucson.<br>><br>>In
the Willingham trial, the committee found, a deputy state fire marshal, <br>>Manuel Vasquez, erred in tracing the blaze to an accelerant. The committee <br>>discredited his finding of arson. "Each and every one of the 'indicators' <br>>listed by Mr. Vasquez means absolutely nothing," the report said.<br>><br>>A Corsicana assistant fire chief, Douglas Fogg, "seemed to harbor many of <br>>the same misconceptions held by Mr. Vasquez," the report went on. It <br>>concluded that the fire had been "grossly misinterpreted." Mr. Fogg did not <br>>respond to a message left on his answering machine. Mr. Vasquez is dead.<br>><br>>Calls to offices in the Texas Fire/Arson Investigation division of the <br>>Texas Department of Insurance were not returned Tuesday.<br>><br>>Other Texas arson investigators and a retired agent of the Federal Bureau <br>>of Investigation testified that the fire charged to Mr. Willis was also <br>>arson, the report
said. One prosecution witness said fires were rarely <br>>caused by accidentally dropped cigarettes; in fact, cigarettes are the <br>>leading cause of fire deaths, the report said.<br>><br>>Many arson investigators were self-taught and "inept," the report said, <br>>adding: "There is no crime other than homicide by arson for which a person <br>>can be sent to death row based on the unsupported opinion of someone who <br>>received all his training 'on the job.' "<br>><br>>Texas leads the nation in inmates serving time for arson, the report said: <br>>666 as of 2002, the latest year for which statistics are available.<br>><br>>Kathy Walt, a spokeswoman for Governor Perry, said the forensic science <br>>commission, to which Mr. Perry names four members, was the right body "to <br>>help the criminal justice system improve by establishing appropriate <br>>standards for labs and investigations."<br>><br>>Ms. Walt said that
minutes before Mr. Willingham's execution, the governor <br>>was faxed an earlier report by an arson specialist, Gerald L. Hurst, <br>>disputing the prosecution's arson testimony, but that Mr. Perry had no way <br>>of evaluating it after the courts and pardons board had turned down the <br>>final appeals.<br>><br>><br>><br>>_____________________________________________________<br>> List services made available by First Step Internet,<br>> serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.<br>> http://www.fsr.net<br>> mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com<br>><br>>_________________________________________________________________<br>>Is your PC infected? Get a FREE online computer virus scan from McAfee® <br>>Security. http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963<br>><br>>_____________________________________________________<br>>List services made available by First Step Internet,
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