<div>Jeff et. al.</div>
<div> </div>
<div>Myanswer to how the US should respond to US based corporations that are engaging in conduct in other nations that violates labor, environmental and other human rights law (please remember that this body of law contains both US la
<br><br> </div>
<div><span class="gmail_quote">On 3/11/06, <b class="gmail_sendername">Jeff Harkins</b> <<a href="mailto:jeffh@moscow.com">jeffh@moscow.com</a>> wrote:</span>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="PADDING-LEFT: 1ex; MARGIN: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; BORDER-LEFT: #ccc 1px solid">
<div style="DIRECTION: ltr"><b>Ted, <br><br></b></div>
<div style="DIRECTION: ltr"><span class="q">
<blockquote cite="http://" type="cite">Jeff et. al.<br> <br>Thanks for your response. </blockquote><br></span></div>
<div style="DIRECTION: ltr"><b>You are welcome<br></b></div>
<div style="DIRECTION: ltr"><span class="q"> <br>
<blockquote cite="http://" type="cite">However, the issue of US based Internet corporations in complicity with the Chinese Communist Party dictatorship in censorship, and the jailing of Chinese dissidents for political speech, is only one issue regarding US corporations conduct in
<span class="st" id="st" name="st">China</span>, an issue which is rather well documented at this time regarding whether the conduct occurred (it did), so I'm puzzled by your signaling you want to withdraw from this discussion to research this US Internet corporate complicity with Communist
<span class="st" id="st" name="st">China</span>. </blockquote><br></span></div>
<div style="DIRECTION: ltr"><b>I don't quite understand your insistence that I respond before I have had an opportunity to adequately research this matter. I have been looking into the issue and while I find a few threads that argue your point, I have found equally compelling threads that would take issue with your position. I will comment when I have settled the issues in my mind - and clarified how the technology has been used.
<br><br></b></div>
<div style="DIRECTION: ltr"><span class="q">
<blockquote cite="http://" type="cite">I won't elaborate on all the points in your last response in this thread, some of which are not central to the issues we were first discussing, except to say US relations with <span class="st" id="st" name="st">
China</span> on the issue of Taiwan do rise to the level of a "cold war," <b>in my opinion</b>, though I agree the term "cold war" can be defined various ways. </blockquote><br></span></div>
<div style="DIRECTION: ltr"><b>As you so eloquently state, "...in my opinion". It is not my opinion. I am comfortable to be in disagreement on this issue.<br><br></b></div>
<div style="DIRECTION: ltr"><span class="q">
<blockquote cite="http://" type="cite">I wonder, if <span class="st" id="st" name="st">China</span> invaded Taiwan for a full military takeover, would the US take military action to defend Taiwan? </blockquote><br></span>
</div>
<div style="DIRECTION: ltr"><b>Probably.<br><br></b></div>
<div style="DIRECTION: ltr"><span class="q">
<blockquote cite="http://" type="cite">There has been military "saber rattling" by the US and <span class="st" id="st" name="st">China</span> on this tense situation, given the US has positioned military assets to send
<span class="st" id="st" name="st">China</span> a "message" of "hands off" Taiwan, and <span class="st" id="st" name="st">China</span> has conducted military exercises that no one doubts were aimed at sending a message to both Taiwan and the US that
<span class="st" id="st" name="st">China</span> still considers Taiwan a legitimate part of "<span class="st" id="st" name="st">China</span>," not a fully independent government with full rights to national sovereignty. The answer to the "Taiwan" question helps to inform the answer to the question regarding whether
<span class="st" id="st" name="st">China</span>/US relations are a "cold war." </blockquote><br></span></div>
<div style="DIRECTION: ltr"><b>My read of that situation is very different from yours. <span class="st" id="st" name="st">China</span> and Taiwan approached the brink of war. Intervention by the US and many other nations have helped to diffuse that situation - through trade negotiations and relations. Military assets remain in place, but trade relations have improved dramatically and the situation seems to have cooled somewhat.
<br><br></b></div>
<div style="DIRECTION: ltr"><span class="q">
<blockquote cite="http://" type="cite">I am posting my response to your last post answering my concerns about Wal-Mart, morals and prostitution, from the thread "[Vision2020] RE: Unstable, Doomed, Missed Points," under the subject heading for this thread, which seems more appropriate to the content. We are not discussing pharmacies and access to drugs relating to Wal-Mart, though this could factor into our discussion.
</blockquote><br></span></div>
<div style="DIRECTION: ltr"><b>I made no posts at all on the pharmacies and access to drugs question. Changing to the Subject thread you are using is fine with me.<br><br></b></div>
<div style="DIRECTION: ltr"><span class="q">
<blockquote cite="http://" type="cite">A few other "corrections" seem to be required, however, to your last response to my last post under this thread.<br> <br>Jeff wrote "I implied no such thing" in response to my statement below:
<br> <br>"You imply the answer to my objections to US based corporations engaging in violations of environmental, labor and human rights law when doing business in other nations, violations that help these corporations out compete their competitors, is the extreme response of restricting international business with these nations."
<br>---------------------<br>You had written in response to my objections to the conduct of the Chinese Communist Party and US based multinationals in <span class="st" id="st" name="st">China</span>:<br><br>Should we stop selling our products to them? Should we stop buying their products.?
<br> <br>My sentence above in quotes was a response to these two questions.</blockquote><br></span></div>
<div style="DIRECTION: ltr"><b>So what is your answer? Should we stop selling our products to <span class="st" id="st" name="st">China</span> and other nations that engage in violations of environmental, labor and human rights laws? Should we stop buying their products? Just a simple yes or no would be a good start in responding to the questions. "Depends" would require some explanation.
<br></b></div>
<div style="DIRECTION: ltr"><span class="q"> <br>
<blockquote cite="http://" type="cite">And please note that my sentence above in quotes does not focus only on the egregious conduct of US Internet corporations operating in <span class="st" id="st" name="st">China</span>
, but on any US corporation that may be engaging in conduct impacting labor, environmental or human rights moral issues in <span class="st" id="st" name="st">China</span>. </blockquote><br></span></div>
<div style="DIRECTION: ltr"><b>Good, because as I have noted numerous times, I am researching that issue.<br><br><br><br></b></div>
<div style="DIRECTION: ltr"><span class="e" id="q_109ed0e858c8c631_17">
<blockquote cite="http://" type="cite">On 3/9/06, <b>Jeff Harkins</b> <<a onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)" href="mailto:jeffh@moscow.com" target="_blank">jeffh@moscow.com</a>> wrote: <br>
<dl>
<dd>At 01:43 PM 3/9/2006, you wrote:<br>
<blockquote cite="http://" type="cite">
<dd>Jeff et. al.<br>
<dd> <br>
<dd>So I assume then that you oppose the economic restrictions our government has imposed on Cuba? We should follow the "economic engagement" model you suggest with Cuba? </dd></dd></dd></blockquote><br>
<dd>Yes - it is time that we open trade relations with Cuba. Besides, we need access to their cigars, sugar cane and baseball players.<br><br>
<blockquote cite="http://" type="cite">
<dd>And that the economic sanctions against South Africa during apartheid were a mistake? We should have engaged in business as usual with South Africa? </dd></blockquote><br>
<dd>Yes - they were a mistake. There is ample evidence that the sanctions we imposed hurt the people we were trying to help more than the separatists we were trying to harm. But that problem seems to have been resolved.
<br><br>
<blockquote cite="http://" type="cite">
<dd>Or the sanctions against Iraq after Gulf War One? Those were a mistake also?</dd></blockquote><br>
<dd>Maybe - this one really depends on whether you believe the Hussein regime had WMD. With hindsight on this one - maybe we should have not stopped Gulf War 1 when we did.<br><br>
<blockquote cite="http://" type="cite">
<dd>And the threat of sanctions against Iran now to persuade them to alter their plans for nuclear developments? This also is a mistaken policy? </dd></blockquote><br>
<dd>I don't believe economic sanctions will be effective in deterring Iran's development of WMD. I am not all that opposed to trying, but I am not optimistic about the outcome. A religious ideology is difficult to break with economics.
<br>
<dd> <br>
<blockquote cite="http://" type="cite">
<dd>You imply the answer to my objections to US based corporations engaging in violations of environmental, labor and human rights law when doing business in other nations, violations that help these corporations out compete their competitors, is the extreme response of restricting international business with these nations. I provided a link to information regarding the US Congress debating placing conditions upon US based companies, like Yahoo and Google, to not cooperate with China's Communist Party in violating the free speech and political rights of Chinese citizens. Odd that you made no reference to the fact that US corporations are complicit in cooperating with China's totalitarian dictatorship in sending political dissidents to jail for exercising free speech rights.
</dd></blockquote><br>
<dd>I implied no such thing. In fact, you note that I made no comment whatsoever. I am researching this question and if I am persuaded to a position, I will be forthcoming with my thoughts. <br><br>
<blockquote cite="http://" type="cite">
<dd> I am suggesting what was suggested by the US Congress. I did not suggest blocking all trade with China. Let our corporations be a firm guide in promoting democratic values in other nations, not a sleazy co-conspirator cooperating with a dictatorship to violate the human rights of its citizens.
</dd></blockquote><br>
<dd>At this point, I have no hard evidence to substantiate your allegation. I am aware of many positive actions by US companies, including Internet companies. But I will seek to learn more about your "conspiracy" allegations and, if persuaded by the evidence I obtain, will post you on my findings.
<br><br>
<blockquote cite="http://" type="cite">
<dd>As to favoring a "cold" or "hot" war with China, I think to some extent we have a "cold war" now with China. Witness China's recent release of a report on US human rights violations, listing our treatment of prisoners in the war on terror, and our treatment of people in the Hurricane Katrina disaster, as human rights violations. China's response is partly aimed at the US criticisms for China's human rights violations. This tit for tat exchange of accusations is an expression of an ideological cold war now under way between China and the US. If holding US based corporations to a firm stand blocking egregious violations of human rights, environmental standards and labor laws implies a "cold war" with China, then so be it.
</dd></blockquote><br>
<dd>Well, labels are easy to apply - I think of a "cold war" that focuses on weapons build up, DefCon 5, strong anti -your opponent comments and so forth. The dialogue between the two nations looks more to me like "establishing the conditions of trade and economic markets and not cold war. Let's just agree to disagree on this one. It is too rooted in definitions to lead to a meaningful dialogue.
<br><br>
<blockquote cite="http://" type="cite">
<dd>The notion that capitalism always implies democracy is a mistaken idea. China no doubt is and will be a fierce competitor in the capitalist world. But US corporations engaging in human rights violations in China could just as well be a green light for the Chinese Communist Party to continue their repressions of their citizens, rather than an influence to democratize that nation. Why should the Chinese Communist Party give up their firm hold on power when the world's leading democracy assists them in jailing political dissidents who dare speak out against the Chinese Communist Party? Or when Google agrees to censor their search engine to block references to the truth about Tienanmen Square? If I was China's leader, I would quietly smile to myself thinking how successful China has been in compromising the democratic idealism of the USA in gaining their complicity in maintaining the Socialist Communists hold on power! All the Chinese Communist Party must do to continue its dictatorial hold on power is assure the American capitalists that they can make a killing off the cheap labor and other competitive advantages China offers. Then the USA will not take a firm stand against China's human rights abuses beyond meaningless propaganda statements.
</dd></blockquote><br>
<dd>Again, let's just agree that we see the world differently on this point. We have been attempting to build economic bridges with the Chinese for decades. Our efforts have only begun to bear fruit - but our trade relations really enjoy only about a 20 year history. During the past decade, many thousands of Chinese have been schooled in the US. It will take time for all that investment to bear a full return. Allow a taste of capitalism (free enterprise, risk and return, freedom of choice) and the appetite for other freedoms will grow.
<br><br>
<dd>Thanks for your response. As I get my head around the "US Internet Corporations conspiracy with China's Communist Party" I will weigh in.<br><br>
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