<div>Crabtree, Donovan et. al.</div>
<div> </div>
<div>If I may interject, I have a few simple points to suggest regarding the assertion that preventing a Super Wal-Mart from being built in Moscow is dictating others shopping choices.</div>
<div> </div>
<div>Isn't Wal-Mart trying to dictate others shopping choices? </div>
<div> </div>
<div>Isn't Wal-Mart seeking to push other businesses out to gain more market share and profit? </div>
<div> </div>
<div>Why should those questioning the wisdom of the proposed Wal-Mart Supercenter in Moscow be charged with limiting shopping choices, when Wal-Mart seeks exactly this goal, with far more resources at their disposal than Joe Campbell or the MCA?
</div>
<div> </div>
<div>Do you think Wal-Mart believes building two supercenters a mere 11 miles apart on the Palouse will encourage more and varied types of business to offer shoppers more varied choices on the Palouse? They may say this in their propaganda, but the Wal-Mart bean counters know they have a good chance to hurt Safeway's business, for example, in the Eastside Marketplace, and force them out.
</div>
<div> </div>
<div>It is a no-brainer that Safeway will be threatened and may go under if the proposed Wal-Mart supercenter is built in Moscow at the proposed location. This means those who support this supercenter may, in effect, if not intent, dictate my shopping choices. I like many of the products Safeway offers, Wal-Wart does not sell these products, thus Wal-Mart is seeking to limit my shopping choices if they push Safeway out... as they should seek to do in the world of capitalist businesses seeking to push other businesses out to gain more market share and profit. There is evidence that Safeway at Eastside operated at a loss in competing with Tidymans. Wal-Mart can operate a store at a loss indefinitely. When a huge corporation can operate in this manner, what chance to fairly compete do smaller businesses have, whether local or not, that cannot tolerate an unprofitable business location (see reference to anti-trust law at bottom)?
</div>
<div> </div>
<div>The idea of full laissez faire capitalism is just that, an "idea." The reality is that business is regulated by federal, state and local law for good reasons, and the types of businesses that can locate in a community, and their conduct, is thus validly addressed by government regulation, in consideration of the impact a business will have, and to promote fair competition. The idea of the "free marketplace" operating without government regulation, where all businesses have some sort of theoretical "equal chance," and the consumer with their "free" shopping choices becomes the ultimate arbiter of what businesses will survive, thus resulting in the best outcome for all based on the needs of the consumer, is an illusion The debate is merely about what set of values we are going to reference in using government to regulate business so that the "free marketplace" does not result in an egregious outcome. If a XXX porno shop specializing in sado-masochistic bondage paraphernalia, with hookers and dealers on the local street corner, located near your house, you might suddenly be advocating limiting of others shopping choices, even if this business was booming. And if a community decides that a more local, varied and decentralized business base is better for the community in the long run, or if the proposed location of a huge business creates problems for the planning goals of the community (traffic, developmental blight, water use, etc.) government can and should set limits on the size and/or location of potentially monopolistic oriented powerful businesses seeking to gain market dominance, especially in a small community.
</div>
<div> </div>
<div>Wal-Mart can influence consumers with its huge advertising budget (over 400 million dollars annually) in a manner many local smaller businesses, and even Safeway (only operating in the USA and Canada), cannot. They also, as I pointed out, can tolerate an unprofitable store location maintaining low prices till competitors go under.
</div>
<div> </div>
<div>I don't need to discuss Wal-Mart's wages or medical benefits, or connections to exploitation of cheap labor under the rule of the human rights denying gulag operating Chinese Communist Party, to make an argument questioning Wal-Mart's goals in Moscow, but I find it laughable and sad that advocates of free market democratic society think that huge US based multinational corporations doing business with human rights denying communist dictatorships does not imply a blind spot in applying our values to our international policies..
</div>
<div> </div>
<div>What may block the proposed Wal-Mart Supercenter in Moscow is not an effort to single out Wal-Mart, but a measure to limit the size of a business (square footage) that can build in Moscow, for a variety of reasons, a limit that will apply across the board equally, to Costco, Target, Home Depot, ShopCo, etc. or any local business, for that matter.
</div>
<div> </div>
<div>I think we should discuss regarding the proposed Moscow Wal-Mart Supercenter: </div>
<div> </div>
<div>What is the point of anti-trust laws? Have these laws been watered down in application in recent years in our economic/ political system? Are huge multinational corporations taking away the power of local communities and businesses to control their own future based on their own best interests? Is the multinational globalized business model the best in the long run, considering that cheap fossil fuel energy makes this business model possible, cheap energy that will in the not too distant future become very expensive and depleted? Should local communities start planning for the collapse or weakening of this globalized business model in view of fossil fuel depletion? And what should concern every Moscow resident, over all other considerations, is that the light pollution from the proposed Wal-Mart Supercenter will ruin the view towards Tomer Butte on lovely moonlit nights...Of course it already is ruined compared to how I once enjoyed this view of Tomer Butte on lovely moonlit nights from Kenneth St. in the late 1960s, when Kenneth St. was the edge of town, and no flashing cell phone tower was in the way.
</div>
<div>
<h2>antitrust: an overview</h2>
<p><a href="http://www.law.cornell.edu/wex/index.php/Antitrust">http://www.law.cornell.edu/wex/index.php/Antitrust</a></p></div>
<div>Trusts and monopolies are concentrations of wealth in the hands of a few. Such conglomerations of economic resources are thought to be injurious to the public and individuals because such trusts minimize, if not obliterate normal marketplace competition, and yield undesirable price controls. These, in turn, cause markets to stagnate and sap individual initiative.
</div>
<div>
<p>-------------------</p>
<p>I now return you to your regular programming...</p></div>
<div> </div>
<div>Ted Moffett<br><br> </div>
<div><span class="gmail_quote">On 3/2/06, <b class="gmail_sendername">g. crabtree</b> <<a href="mailto:jampot@adelphia.net">jampot@adelphia.net</a>> wrote:</span>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="PADDING-LEFT: 1ex; MARGIN: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; BORDER-LEFT: #ccc 1px solid">My goodness, Campbell, I sure am glad you aren't the touchy, sensitive type.<br>I'd be worried that I might displease you by the act of disagreement. A
<br>crime punishable by wounded post script. What part of my thinking that you<br>are wrong is insulting exactly? Is it just the fact that I dare? Or was it<br>being referred to as "junior"? (as contrasted by Nick Gier's senior) Or was
<br>it that I referred to you as a "philosopher" a profession that you have told<br>me repeatedly is a source of enormous pride to you. I really don't get it.<br><br>Anyway, as long as you've got a case of the all bent out of shape, lets take
<br>a look at your responses to my point about aesthetics. Rather than telling<br>me how the drawings for the proposed SWM don't live up to your highly<br>refined concept of what's beautiful and what's not, you resort to the Popeye
<br>edict "I'ze taken all'z I can takes and I can't take's na more" Amazing<br>how it occurs when you've got a crowd to sing the "me too" chorus.<br>Politically expedient.<br><br>Joe sez (I'd stick to the more formal Mr. Campbell but at this stage it
<br>seems it really doesn't matter what I say it'll be seen as deadly insult) in<br>response to my assertion that preventing a SWM from being built is dictating<br>others shopping choices..."YOU ARE WRONG. (my emphasis) There is a
<br>difference between dictating what people do and using one's words to<br>influence what people do. The latter respects that people have the<br>capacities to reason and make decisions for themselves. The former does<br>
not." How are you "influencing" people with words not to shop someplace when<br>by your actions you prevent that venue from being built? Wouldn't seem to<br>matter much what the "people" think or "reason." You've made the decision
<br>for them.<br><br>Joe, I've really got to admit that I got a genuine belly laugh from your gas<br>station argument. By your logic all wal marts as well as all gas stations in<br>Latah Co. should be built on the east side of Granddad bridge, definitely
<br>reduces that pesky foot traffic. So just exactly what sort of "smart growth"<br>retail can exist within the 1/2 mile exclusionary zone of Casa Campbell? Are<br>you going to complain to the MCityA council if the kids down the street open
<br>a lemonade stand? That would be sad.<br><br>" Crabtree asks that I provide evidence for exploitation in the form of some<br>pro-Wal-Mart website." No, Joseph, I asked for hard evidence of your<br>assertion of human rights violations by showing me convictions in a court of
<br>law. Either the Dept. of Justice has wracked up the stats. or it hasn't.<br>Pretending that this is asking the impossible is to admit that your argument<br>is lacking.<br><br>Lastly Joe, I don't much care if you say the pledge of allegiance or not.
<br>Nobody has made any judgment as to your level of perfection and I am most<br>certainly not condemning you. I disagree with you. In some way or another,<br>on one topic or another, I am sure I disagree with every person on this
<br>list. I hope that they aren't all insulted as easily as you.<br><br>hugs & kisses,<br>The Guy<br><br><br><br><br><br>----- Original Message -----<br>From: <<a href="mailto:joekc@adelphia.net">joekc@adelphia.net
</a>><br>To: <<a href="mailto:vision2020@moscow.com">vision2020@moscow.com</a>><br>Sent: Thursday, March 02, 2006 2:49 PM<br>Subject: [Vision2020] Wal-Mart: Replies to Donovan and Crabtree<br><br><br>> Donovan and Mr. Crabtree,
<br>><br>> I'm sorry for the combined post but I have only one more post to use<br>> today.<br>><br>> Both of you used an interesting fallacy in response to a previous post of<br>> mine on the proposed Super Wal-Mart.
<br>><br>> Mr. Crabtree wrote: "Your argument with regard to aesthetics doesn't fly<br>> all that well either. … You didn't pipe up about any of [previous]<br>> developments, why the concern now? Sounds more like a case of not 'in my
<br>> backyard' syndrome than any real desire for architectural grace."<br>><br>> Donovan wrote: "Can you please explain to me how it is that you can buy<br>> plastics and gasoline from countries like Iran, Iraq, Kuwait, Saudi Arabia
<br>> etc., that have the worst human rights record in the world, yet at the<br>> same time scorn Wal-Mart for buying products from other businesses that<br>> manufacture their goods in China?"<br>><br>> In response, here is a story. For 15 weeks, children threw eggs at the
<br>> house of Mr. Crabtree-Arnold. One day, as he was walking to his car, Mr.<br>> Crabtree-Arnold noticed young Tommy, throwing an egg at his house. Mr.<br>> Crabtree-Arnold scolded Tommy, at which point Tommy replied: "For 15 weeks
<br>> kids have been throwing eggs at your house. You never said anything<br>> against them, so why pick on me?"<br>><br>> Does that fact that Mr. Crabtree-Arnold never said anything prior to this<br>> day mean that he has no reason to scold Tommy?
<br>><br>> Here are some comments to other points that you've made:<br>><br>> 1/ Donovan: "If you believe that countries with bad human rights records<br>> should be denied jobs, and believe the US kills innocents overseas, then
<br>> why are you not for exporting US jobs to countries with better human<br>> rights records then our own?"<br>><br>> Reply: I love our country and I want to make it the best that it can be.<br>><br>> 2/ Crabtree: "I would suggest that if you stand in the way of a place to
<br>> shop being built you are most assuredly dictating, in an albeit small way,<br>> where folks can and can't shop."<br>><br>> Reply: .You are wrong. There is a difference between dictating what people<br>> do and using one's words to influence what people do. The latter respects
<br>> that people have the capacities to reason and make decisions for<br>> themselves. The former does not<br>><br>> Furthermore, by attempting to keep a Super Wal-Mart from coming into<br>> Moscow, I am not "dictating where people can shop." We have a Wal-Mart and
<br>> there is a Super Wal-Mart scheduled for Pullman. People will still be able<br>> to shop at Wal-Mart.<br>><br>> 3/ Crabtree: "… having a Wal Mart on the east side of town would seem to<br>> be in keeping with the 'smart growth' mantra I keep hearing you MCA types
<br>> carry on about. Isn't the idea to have shopping be within walking distance<br>> of residential development?"<br>><br>> Reply: You must be joking. Do you think that Super Wal-Mart would plan for<br>> a gas station on location if the intent were only to increase the level of
<br>> walking customers? If this reply were correct, it would make a mockery of<br>> the economic arguments in support of having a Super Wal-Mart in town,<br>> which only work if customers beyond the east side of Moscow visit the
<br>> store often. Part of my concern with having a Super Wal-Mart nearby is<br>> that I already have a difficult time walking or riding my bike to<br>> different places in Moscow as it is. A Super Wal-Mart on Route 8 will only
<br>> make matters worse.<br>><br>> 4/ Donovan: "Just because a place offers low prices does not mean that<br>> they are exploiting others."<br>><br>> Reply: I didn't suggest this argument. I said that Wal-Mart happened to
<br>> offer low prices because they exploit others. I'm not claiming that this<br>> is true because of some general rule. Crabtree asks that I provide<br>> evidence for exploitation in the form of some pro-Wal-Mart website and,
<br>> well, I guess I can't do that. Clearly there is a problem here since both<br>> of you seem to think that any evidence in support of my claim is<br>> prejudiced since it is …. well, evidence in support of something you don't
<br>> believe.<br>><br>> I did give just one small example of exploitation. Part of the reason that<br>> Wal-Mart offers low prices is that many of their products are manufactured<br>> in countries that fail to recognize the concept of a human right. Point
<br>> out that other stores are guilty of the same and I'll point you to the<br>> Tommy story above. I'm not perfect but at least I can try to stand up to<br>> principles in which I truly believe as best as I can. I don't condemn
<br>> people who think otherwise. I do wonder why people worry so much about<br>> whether we recite the pledge of allegiance instead of just living in<br>> accordance with the thoughts and sentiments it conveys: "liberty and
<br>> justice for all."<br>><br>> 5/ "P.S. Tony, sorry if I'm stepping on your toes a bit here but when it<br>> comes to our resident junior philosopher's musings there's plenty<br>> 'wrongness' for ten folks to respond."
<br>><br>> Reply: I'm so glad you included this PS. Otherwise it would be difficult<br>> to refer to you as "the guy who is unable to say anything to me without<br>> insulting me."<br>><br>> Until tomorrow!
<br>><br>> Best, Joe<br>><br>><br>> _____________________________________________________<br>> List services made available by First Step Internet,<br>> serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.
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