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Thanks for responding, Pat, and I hope that you are right! If it
weren't for the Super Wal-Mart in Pullman, I doubt I would be as
worried. I know that those who get my business will continue to do so
even if the worst state of affairs transpires. But you have to admit
that there will be many folks who will get those tires at the Super
Wal-Mart, while they are there buying all the other stuff.
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<p>
One point which I didn't make previously is that there was a man who
worked at Les Shwab who lived in my neighborhood. A nice man with a
fine family. I wonder how many of the workers at the new Super
Wal-Mart could afford to live in my neighborhood. And if not here,
where?
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I share your concern with Safeway in terms of the 'card.' What strikes
me as unfair here is that we are working for free for their marketing
research. (I guess we do get a discount.) The information collection
may be even worse, though. Nonetheless, I continue to shop because I
have gotten excellent servive there. And I do feel that the folks who
work there have a sustainable income. In fact, one of my former
students works in the pharmacy and she is doing quite well indeed.
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<p>
Donovan, if you are listening, do you have information about the
comparison of wages at Les Schwab, Safeway, and the potential Super
Wal-Mart? My gut tells me if the latter two go, so will a bunch of
affordable wages but I lack the data to support this belief and
nothing you've offered so far tells me otherwise.
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What upsets me most about our current situation is that in the 50's
one average income could sustain a family. We live in a world today
where it takes two to do so. Granted, professors in art and philosophy
are not among the best paid. But both my wife and I are tenured yet if
either of us were to quit then things would get rough indeed. There is
a lot about this set of facts that strikes me as a bit of raw deal,
not so much for me but for all of us.<br>--<br>Joe Campbell<br><br>
---- Pat Kraut <pkraut moscow.com="#DEFAULT">wrote:<br><br>
=============<br>I have suggested that Safeway won't survivie with or
without a Wal-Mart and had a friend tell me why she won't shop
there...its the card! When they first got the 'card' she tried to get
some cherries locally that were marked 99 cents she thought until she
got to the checker and was informed that price was only good if she
had a 'card'. She walked out and has not been back and so have her
children. I am well aware that many don't mind the stores keeping
track of what they purchase and when but I do and know many others do
also. It was a poor business decision and they will pay the
marketplace price for it as well as Rite Aid and others. This friend
is older and lived in Troy in the 1940's so I asked her if Troy ever
had a clothing store and she said yes. When she moved there someone
did but they got older and didn't stay in business and the persons
family did not take it over so it has been a long time. I have heard
that the new Wal-mart will hurt the small cities but I don't think it
will more so than now because otherwise a 'short trip' to the store
turns into hours from far enough out. Yes, those on the way home from
work in the bigger cities will stop before they get that far but that
has to be happening now doesn't it? Also, I recently had a problem
with a tire and went to Les Shwab because I have their tires. A young
man stopped me in the parking lot asked the problem and I went in and
filled out a yellow form. Within less that 10 min he came in and said
it had been a stem and it was fixed and to have a nice day! I want you
to know that I am not likely to give up that service. Especially being
an 'older' woman, alone and poor I need help and I am smart enough to
know it. I do not know what service Wal-mart offers but I do not see
me changing that part of my shopping.<br>I want you to know that I am
not saying that two new stores won't make changes I am just saying
that it all levels out and some survive and some don't...been that way
a long time.<br>----- Original Message -----<br>From:
joekc@adelphia.net<br>To: Pat Kraut<br>Cc: vision2020<br>Sent:
Tuesday, January 31, 2006 8:17 AM<br>Subject: Re: [Vision2020] One
more WalMart thing . . .<br><br><br>Thanks for your comments, Pat.<br><br>
I agree that stores need to diversify in order to stay in business. This is
one reason that Hodgins is still around and still able to provide
local folks with a wonderful selection of toys, ones that are not
available at Wal-Mart. I won't deny that there is an important message
for local business owners to learn. But can the diversity that Hodgins
currently offers compete with a Super Wal-Mart, which (I suspect) will
have a pharmacy and a drug store in addition to a toy store? Must
Safeway diversify and sell more than mere food and household supplies
to stay in business? In the case of Safeway, we loose more than a
local store since they regularly stock items on their shelves which
are produced by local companies, items that the Super Wal-Mart will
not stock. So there is a great deal of our local economy that will
change with the additon of two Super Wal-Marts.<br><br>I wonder why
you think that blame in all this lies with the unions, especially
given Wal-Marts union-busting stance.<br><br>One more thing. I am not
a fatalist. I am not certain that "we are not going to be able to
completely stop Wal-mart or other stores from following their example
of business." Ultimately we need to remind people about their true
values as opposed to the ones that they reflect given the current
business trends of stores like Wal-Mart. I'm not suggesting that it
will be easy to bring on this kind of awareness. But it is not
impossible.<br>--<br>Joe Campbell<br><br>---- Pat Kraut wrote:<br><br>
=============<br>I have seen so many 'one item' stores close since
moving to Moscow it would be hard to miss the point. A baby store that
only sells baby stuff, a women's store that only sell high priced
items, a 'teeny bopper' store that only has clothes that fit a 15 year
old, a toy store that only sells high priced toys that and so on and
so on. If a store does not sell a variety of items it won't make it in
small cities. Especially if, as in the case of KB they sell only toys
at a price that is twice what they are in Lewiston or Spokane. The
first week I lived here the people I met were delighted that I knew
how to get around in Spokane so they could go shopping up there and
not stay downtown. I could get to the Northtown mall and they were
thrilled and I became very popular. That was 1961 and nothing has
changed except that lots of trips are made to Lewiston now and they
didn't then. The best kind of stores are ones that sell lots of items
at a price most people can afford and Sam Walton built a business
based on that premise. He was full of new ideas and made it work for
him...just like others before him who figured out how to do it for
themselves and make a fortune. It is the American dream. It is what
freedom means...being able to make choices at all levels. Even at the
level of making obscene amounts of money. Do we need to do some
checks? yes obviously, but we are not going to be able to completely
stop Wal-mart or other stores from following their example of
business. Unions have made it difficult to do business in the USA for
sometime now and they are going to have to be reigned in also...look
at autos. It is one of the problems we have and Congress is too busy
looking at other things to really address the need...but it will be
fixed in the marketplace just as other things have been in the past.<br>
----- Original Message -----<br>From: joekc@adelphia.net<br>To: Jeff Harkins<br>
Cc: vision2020@moscow.com<br>Sent: Monday, January 30, 2006 7:46 PM<br>
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] One more WalMart thing . . .<br><br><br>Jeff,<br><br>
Thanks, very much, for the explanation of KB Toys demise. Apologies to J. Ford
who hinted at a similar point that I failed to investigate further. (I
did a quick search for KB on the web, and find a website, thought that
they were still in business.) I don't remember Gary saying anything
even close to the explanation below, but either way the details are
helpful.<br><br>A few points though. The Moscow store was closed well
before the Spokane store. I find it hard to believe that local market
factors had nothing to do with this. But this is a minor point.<br><br>
A somewhat more substantive point is that toy stores like KB Toys, as
well as grocery stores like Albertsons, are having a difficult time
staying in business given the success of Super Wal-Marts. Jeff, you
know a lot about economics but you know nothing about toys if you
think that the selection at Wal-Mart and the selection at KB Toys is
the same. It just isn't. Trust me. I've spent a lot of time in the
last few years in each (I shoped at Wal-Mart regularly up until 2
months ago). Just taking hot wheels cars, for instance, KB had a much
better selection.<br><br>Further, my claim was not that "good
businesses were being driven out by bad businesses." My point was that
the so-called 'free market' does not always lead to an increase in
consumer choice. It was a rebutal of an old article of economic faith
uttered continuously by Donovan but, I believe, also by yourself and
Gary.<br><br>Let's skip the KB example since there are facts about
that case of which I am clearly ignorant. Let's, instead, borrow a
piece of economic analysis offered by Gary in a previous post. There
he claimed that KB Toys and its ilk were being pushed out by a move
toward computer games and other electronic toys as well as the
increase of web-based toy stores. It just so happens that (a) I don't
like computer games and I don't want my son to play them (I'll save
you the explanation) and (b) I don't like to order things on-line
(I'll save you the explanation here, too). Sure, I'm old-fashioned but
my point is the the so-called free market has not lead to a greater
number of choices for the consumer. We are forced now by 'consumer
demand' to purchase new and different toys in stores or older models
on-line. There is only an appearance of an increase of choice provided
that you happen to like what the majority of people like. If your
tastes and inclinations go against the majority, too bad for you.<br><br>
Again, Gary might say something about my selfish motivations but he is (again)
missing the point. I ask you, people of Moscow: Do you live here
because Moscow is like every place else or because it is different? Do
you think of yourself as someone who thinks just like everyone else or
someone who thinks outside the box? If the answer to both is the
latter, do what you can to CHOOSE now to ensure that Moscow remains
unique before low-cost and convenience turns it into Anytown, USA.<br>
--<br>Joe Campbell<br><br>---- Jeff Harkins wrote:<br><br>=============<br>
Before I invest the time necessary to unravel the<br>comments by Mr. Schou, I
need to divest myself<br>from the claim by Ms. Opyr that I asked for an<br>
example of a good business driven out by a bad<br>(or whatever). I made no
such request. I did<br>respond to the query raised by Gary (which I<br>
considered an appropriate question, given the<br>claim by J Campbell
that good businesses were<br>being driven out by bad businesses - the
thread<br>is clear - J Campbell offered up the example)<br><br>I
provided evidence supporting a position that KB<br>Toys left Moscow,
entered into E-commerce as a<br>result of being convicted of charges
of price<br>manipulation, which appears to have resulted in<br>their
declaration of bankruptcy. If there was a<br>Wal-Mart connection, it
doesn't appear to be part of the public record.<br><br>Ms. Opyr
appears to be careless in her reading<br>and quick to indict. It would
make V2020 more<br>useful as a public forum if you would be more
careful in your posts.<br><br>I am unsure of the value of knowing Ms.
Opyr's<br>consumption habits. Personal consumption habits<br>are
...... personal. Oddly enough, I found a<br>very different toy
selection at Wal-Mart than she<br>described. While shopping for toys
for nieces<br>and nephews this Christmas season, I noted that<br>most
all the retailers in the area carried pretty<br>much the same toys (my
guess is that their<br>inventory is driven by what they perceive their<br>
market demand is - ah - what the kids want!) The<br>real challenge was to find
a retailer that<br>actually had the item in stock (not sold<br>out).
Some of the items were found in the malls,<br>some at Walmart - alas -
some could only be found in Spokane.<br><br>But, as to the
availability of KB Toys, their<br>products are still available through
their E-Commerce site.<br><br>Finally, I took no personal position on
whether<br>KB was a good business or a bad business - we all<br>have
our personal and subjective standards for<br>such qualitative
judgments. I did make the claim<br>that KB Toys was not a superior
business and I<br>did provide additional information so that those<br>
interested would have more info about the factors<br>leading to KB's
decision to close the Moscow Mall store.<br><br>Now, to the Schou
matter .... till then.<br><br><br>At 03:43 PM 1/30/2006, you wrote:<br>
>Dear Visionaries:<br>><br>>Jeff Harkins and Gary Crabtree asked
a few days<br>>ago for examples of good businesses driven<br>>out<br>
>by bad. Joe Campbell attempted to supply them<br>>with just such an
example in the demise of<br>>KayBee Toys. The problem here, however,
is not<br>>with Joe's answer but with Harkins' and<br>>Crabtree's
question, which is a classic example<br>>of petititio elenchi, i.e.,
begging the<br>>question.<br>><br>>The underlying assumption in
Harkins/Crabtree's<br>>reasoning is that the "good" or "superior"<br>
><br>>business is always the one that survives. But<br>>that reasoning
depends on how you define<br>>superior. KayBee Toys, which offered a<br>
>demonstrably superior selection of goods than<br>>WalMart,<br>>went out
of business. Is WalMart therefore the<br>>better store? Define better.
WalMart<br>>offers five<br>>aisles of cheap, plastic, Chinese-made
toys,<br>>none of which I'd care to purchase. Like<br>>Joe, I prefer<br>
>to buy my kids' toys at Hodgins<br>>Drugs. Why? Quality and selection.
It's also possible<br>>at Hodgins<br>>to buy the occasional
union-made toy. Flip the<br>>toy and read the box. If it's made in a<br>
>country<br>>noted for its poor labor practices, tell your<br>>kids,
"Sorry, but I suspect that someone<br>>your age<br>
>manufactured this doll in an overseas sweatshop." Move on to the next
item.<br>><br>>(There, Dale -- more evidence for your blog that I'm
a communist.)<br>><br>>In Harkins/Crabtree's view, it would seem
that<br>>cheaper is always better. Perhaps<br>>convenience<br>
>also plays some role (KayBee Toys didn't sell<br>>toothpaste or
underwear) but weren't we also<br>><br>>talking about expansion of
choice? How does<br>>WalMart (or a WalMart Supercenter) represent<br>
>a<br>>genuine expansion of choice? What WalMart<br>>offers is an
inferior selection of toys, most<br>>of poor<br>>quality, but it
offers them at cheap prices and<br>>conveniently locates them between
the<br>>furnace<br>>filters and the dog food. My expanded choice<br>
>seems to be mere convenience and the chance<br>>to<br>>buy something
crappy and disposable for my<br>>kids. It's the bargain that isn't a
bargain --<br>>it's<br>>penny-wise and pound-foolish.<br>><br>
>We have a WalMart already. We need WalMart<br>>Supercenters in
both Moscow and Pullman why?<br>>Because Winco, Rosauers, Safeway, the
Co-Op,<br>>Dissmore's, the Pullman Safeway, Tri-State,<br>>Hodgins,
Les Schwab, Bruneel, Sears,<br>>Deranleau's, Bookpeople, Hastings,
Gottschalk's, the<br>>Bon,<br>>Ross Dress for Less, RiteAid,
JoAnn's,<br>>HyperSpud, Paradise Creek Bicycles, Paradise Ridge<br>
>Records, Goodwill, Shopko, the Internet, and<br>>Moscow's existing
WalMart aren't offering us<br>>enough choice? Or because they're not
offering us enough cheap crap?<br>><br>>Joan Opyr/Auntie
Establishment<br>>www.joanopyr.com<br>><br>><br>
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