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Any council member is free to enter the chamber BEFORE the council
meeting begins and say the Pledge. (I am not talking about the
situation, that Donovan noted, of saying the Pledge AFTER the meeting
has begun.) Why is this not enough? Why is it important to compel
others to follow your example of patriotism, or to publicly embarass
those who choose not to do it? Again, you have a hard time convincing
me that all this talk isn't hooked up with some further political
agenda.
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By the way, if you think that folks are genuinely free to NOT say the
Pledge given the way that things went previously at council meetings,
try going to a Mariners game and 'freely' sitting while the Star
Spangled Banner is sung. See how many folks respect your freedoms then.<br>
--<br>Joe Campbell<br><br>---- Chris Storhok <cstorhok co.fairbanks.ak.us="#DEFAULT">
wrote:<br><br>=============<br>Joe,<br><br>At no time have I ever seen anyone
forced to recite the Pledge. If you look<br>around at just about any
government meeting where the Pledge is being<br>recited you will see
people who are not participating. That is their<br>choice, I know of
people who for religious purposes will not ever under any<br>
circumstances utter the Pledge, swear on a Bible, or take any other
oath. I<br>personally do not condemn those actions, I respect those
who stand for their<br>beliefs, to do otherwise would make me no
better than a petty tyrant and<br>certainly would violate my
convictions of what being an American is all<br>about.<br><br>Liberty
also means the right to stand silently, liberty means the right to<br>
protest; liberty means dissension is not only allowed but encouraged.<br>
However, liberty also means that you should respect others who want to<br>
express their feelings of patriotism, support the President, and
support our<br>troops. Nothing troubles me more than the current
hatred and disrespect<br>that people on the extreme ends of the
political spectrum have for those who<br>they disagree with. Ann
Coulter and Ted Kennedy both make me sick.<br><br>Chris<br><br><br><br>
_____<br><br>From: joekc@adelphia.net [mailto:joekc@adelphia.net]<br>
Sent: Friday, January 27, 2006 11:45 AM<br>To: Chris Storhok<br>Cc:
vision2020@moscow.com; 'Phil Nisbet'; privatejf32@hotmail.com<br>
Subject: RE: [Vision2020] The pledge Controversy<br><br><br><br>Chris,<br><br>
These are very moving words. I find little to disagree with.<br><br>But I will
ask, which is more important: the symbolism of the Pledge or the<br>
liberties noted within? I say the latter. Without the liberties the
Pledge<br>is meaningless. A world with those liberties yet no Pledge
is a better world<br>than one with the Pledge yet no liberties.<br><br>
That said, we should respect the decisions that adults make about when
and<br>under what circumstances they choose to say the Pledge. If we
cannot<br>guarantee this basic right, exactly what liberties are you
suggesting that<br>the Pledge stands for?<br>--<br>Joe Campbell<br><br>
---- Chris Storhok wrote:<br><br>=============<br>Phil,<br>The
symbolism of the pledge took on a whole new meaning to me at 7:00pm on<br>
September 11, 2001. I had to attend a Deary City Council meeting that night<br>
to discuss preliminary plans to convert the old Lions Hall and nearby<br>
fertilizer facility into a community center. There was talk all day of<br>
canceling the meeting in light of earlier events; however, Mayor Foster<br>
would have none of that. The city hall was filled (not hard to do in Deary<br>
but considering that day it was still a nice sight) as the Mayor, the
City<br>council, and all of us in the audience stood and recited the
pledge. There<br>was not a dry eye in the place but still government
and life went on.<br><br>The pledge may be a rote phrase to many, it
may be offensive to others, it<br>was written by a socialist, it has
been battered around, beaten, cursed,<br>ignored, and pronounced
antiquated; however, in the end it is as you say, a<br>symbol that
unites us to serve a common cause, defense of liberty and the<br>
defense of our nation. It is not perfect, is there anything earthly
that<br>is? It is offensive to somebody, is there anything that is
not? It is<br>though a powerful symbol of our nation. It is the only
statement of<br>allegiance and commitment to our nation that most
Americans ever state<br>(since a vast majority of Americans do not
serve in the military).<br><br>Of any time I have ever said the
pledge, that night in Deary less than five<br>years ago was one of the
most meaningful and oddly enough, wonderful,<br>experiences in
government service I have ever had. I only hope that those<br>on this
list who condemn repetition of that simple statement can remember<br>
back those few years ago to your feelings of that day, and realize
that in<br>the end all we really can do is to unite ourselves to move
our imperfect<br>experiment in governance forward to succeeding
generations.<br><br>Chris Storhok<br><br><br><br><br><br>-----Original
Message-----<br>From: vision2020-bounces@moscow.com
[mailto:vision2020-bounces@moscow.com]<br>On Behalf Of Phil Nisbet<br>
Sent: Friday, January 27, 2006 7:08 AM<br>To: privatejf32@hotmail.com<br>
Cc: vision2020@moscow.com<br>Subject: RE: [Vision2020] The pledge Controversy<br><br>
J<br><br>Morning Formation is hugely rich in symbolism. You did not need to
say a<br>pledge because the other symbolic things were there in spades.<br><br>
Then there is also the larger formation parades to add to your sense of<br>
place and you also have reveille and recall, stop and turn to the
location<br>of the flag going up or down and salute. The company
guidon, the battalion<br>and regimental colors, the ordering of
events. . .<br><br>So the reminders of your place within the unit and
its function were<br>constant.<br><br>Verwen the pay this bill and do
not pay that one that form the basis of most<br><br>council or
commission meetings, its nice to think that their is some call to<br><br>
civic duty. That is what the people who want the pledge are looking for, a<br>
symbolism that calls the proceeding into its place.<br><br>Can a unit
that does not make formation ve effective in combat? Sure, but<br>its
more likely to be a unit through the sense that formation brings. Even<br>
with Formations and the rest that unit can still break down and members of<br>
it can and do screw the pooch, but its a form that tends to assist
most of<br>us.<br><br>So, the pledge is not the only thing that can
add that form and symbolism to<br><br>council meetings, but it is one
of the possible forms. Just like formation<br>telling a troop that he
now has to put aside his persnal desires to act as a<br><br>unit, some
opening form at the start of a council meeting is there to give<br>
that council the sense that they now are to put aside their personal
agendas<br><br>and act as the unit charged with overseeing the public
weal for the people<br>who elected them.<br><br>Lacking such a symbol
will not end good government any more than lack of a<br>formation will
make a fighting unit unable to fight, but time has told us<br>that
some forms increase the odds of better performance. Pick your symbol,<br>
but remember that for many the Pledge is one of the more powerful.<br><br>Phil
Nisbet<br><br><br><br>>From: "J Ford"<br>>To:
pcnisbet1@hotmail.com<br>>Subject: RE: [Vision2020] The pledge
Controversy<br>>Date: Fri, 27 Jan 2006 00:30:33 -0800<br>><br>
>While I agree with most of what you say, I must add that those that
are<br>>gripping the loudest about the pledge not being said (a) do
not themselves<br>>make that kind of demand of themselves; (b) do not
attend the majority of<br>>the meetings held at City Hall; (c) gripe
because that is what they do<br>>best.<br>><br>>I personally do
not see the need to open each and every single meeting with<br><br>
>the pledge; just like I did not understand us having to say it EVERY
single<br><br>>day at school. As I have stated before and others have
stated, saying it<br>>does NOT in any way, shape or form guarantee
that the person will follow<br>>the pledge, adhere to its standards,
continue to be accountable to the<br>>citizens of this town/country or
even believe in what it says.<br>><br>>I like Nancy's idea of
opening with some kind of statement to set the tone,<br><br>>but if
the Council didn't do that I would not be offended or hurt or feel<br>
>like they were not being loyal to this country or city.<br>><br>
>During my time in the military, when we would fall in, go through<br>
>inspection, report for duty, we did not say the pledge or sing the anthem.<br><br>
>That did not make us any less loyal or dutiful to this country or the<br>
>citizens.<br>><br>>Seriously, where were the people four years
ago when the pledge or opening<br>>statements were not even thought of
being done? Why this fuss now? I<br>>think a mole hill is being made
into a mountain simply for joy of doing so<br>>by those doing it.<br>
><br>>My thoughts - take them for what they're worth.<br>><br>>J :]<br>
><br>><br>><br>><br>>>From: "Phil Nisbet"<br>>>To:
vision2020@moscow.com<br>>>Subject: [Vision2020] The pledge Controversy<br>
>>Date: Thu, 26 Jan 2006 23:41:22 -0800<br>>><br>>>I had a say
earlier and figured that it was sufficient to the day, but the<br><br>
>>huge volume of traffic on this issue has me scratching my head.<br>
>><br>>>There are some with honest opinions here on both sides. Chas,
for an<br>>>example, is a non-conformist and hates all things related
to pledges. His<br><br>>>opinion on the subject and his feelings are
valid and need to be<br>>>respected. Similarly, those who want the
pledge said have solid feelings<br>>>on the subject and valid desires
to see the pledge said as a symbol of<br>>>their own love of country
and they deserve as much respect as Chas does.<br>>><br>>>One of
the people I had dinner with last night had something very valid to<br><br>
>>say. He noted that at his age he still tripped over the portion of the<br>
>>pledge that was added in the 1950's and that he had an easier time of it<br>
>>when it was not there. He still preferred to have some sort of a<br>
>>patriotic opening to a governmental proceeding.<br>>><br>
>>Nancy says that she wants to vary things as opening statements
before the<br>>>meeting to set the tone. I would say that is fine, one
meeting the<br>>>pledge, the next meeting the national anthem, the
next a brief patriotic<br>>>poem, what ever. What ever the pick for
opening, pledge or song or poem<br>>>or speech portion, it needs to
reflect civic participation in the great<br>>>American political
process.<br>>><br>>>This need not have been a controversy had
this idea been circulated in the<br><br>>>first place. If at the first
meeting it had been made clear that that was<br><br>>>the plan, I do
not see the kind of concerns that have been aired. The<br>>>problem
occurs when actions to make changes are made without the public<br>
>>being informed, in effect, the public having to discover by word of
mouth<br>>>and Listserver that a change has happened without their
knowledge.<br>>><br>>>So perhaps we can get Nancy to post her
ideas and she can also inform the<br>>>papers with a list of the
openings she intends and the controversy can die<br><br>>>down. Heck,
she can open a suggestion box for citizen preferred openings<br>>>to
council meetings and then everybody can get a crack at picking one.<br>
>><br>>>I nominate,"I am not an Athenian or a Greek, but a
citizen of the world"<br>>>Socrates, in hopes of getting Chas and
his kindred spirits into the idea.<br>>><br>>>Phil Nisbet<br>
>><br>>>PS On the other hand there have been one heck of a lot of not
very honest<br><br>>>answers on this subject. Those of you who
expressed things not your own<br>>>opinion just to make political hay
know who you are and that is from all<br>>>sides. Its exceptionally
bad when an official plays finger pointing as if<br><br>>>that offical
was not involved.<br>>><br>
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