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Chris,
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These are very moving words. I find little to disagree with.
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But I will ask, which is more important: the symbolism of the Pledge
or the liberties noted within? I say the latter. Without the liberties
the Pledge is meaningless. A world with those liberties yet no Pledge
is a better world than one with the Pledge yet no liberties.
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That said, we should respect the decisions that adults make about when
and under what circumstances they choose to say the Pledge. If we
cannot guarantee this basic right, exactly what liberties are you
suggesting that the Pledge stands for?<br>--<br>Joe Campbell<br><br>
---- Chris Storhok <cstorhok co.fairbanks.ak.us="#DEFAULT">wrote:<br><br>
=============<br>Phil,<br>The symbolism of the pledge took on a whole new
meaning to me at 7:00pm on<br>September 11, 2001. I had to attend a
Deary City Council meeting that night<br>to discuss preliminary plans
to convert the old Lions Hall and nearby<br>fertilizer facility into a
community center. There was talk all day of<br>canceling the meeting
in light of earlier events; however, Mayor Foster<br>would have none
of that. The city hall was filled (not hard to do in Deary<br>but
considering that day it was still a nice sight) as the Mayor, the City<br>
council, and all of us in the audience stood and recited the pledge. There<br>
was not a dry eye in the place but still government and life went on.<br><br>
The pledge may be a rote phrase to many, it may be offensive to others, it<br>
was written by a socialist, it has been battered around, beaten,
cursed,<br>ignored, and pronounced antiquated; however, in the end it
is as you say, a<br>symbol that unites us to serve a common cause,
defense of liberty and the<br>defense of our nation. It is not
perfect, is there anything earthly that<br>is? It is offensive to
somebody, is there anything that is not? It is<br>though a powerful
symbol of our nation. It is the only statement of<br>allegiance and
commitment to our nation that most Americans ever state<br>(since a
vast majority of Americans do not serve in the military).<br><br>Of
any time I have ever said the pledge, that night in Deary less than
five<br>years ago was one of the most meaningful and oddly enough,
wonderful,<br>experiences in government service I have ever had. I
only hope that those<br>on this list who condemn repetition of that
simple statement can remember<br>back those few years ago to your
feelings of that day, and realize that in<br>the end all we really can
do is to unite ourselves to move our imperfect<br>experiment in
governance forward to succeeding generations.<br><br>Chris Storhok<br><br><br><br><br><br>
-----Original Message-----<br>From: vision2020-bounces@moscow.com
[mailto:vision2020-bounces@moscow.com]<br>On Behalf Of Phil Nisbet<br>
Sent: Friday, January 27, 2006 7:08 AM<br>To: privatejf32@hotmail.com<br>
Cc: vision2020@moscow.com<br>Subject: RE: [Vision2020] The pledge Controversy<br><br>
J<br><br>Morning Formation is hugely rich in symbolism. You did not need to
say a<br>pledge because the other symbolic things were there in spades.<br><br>
Then there is also the larger formation parades to add to your sense of<br>
place and you also have reveille and recall, stop and turn to the
location<br>of the flag going up or down and salute. The company
guidon, the battalion<br>and regimental colors, the ordering of
events. . .<br><br>So the reminders of your place within the unit and
its function were<br>constant.<br><br>Verwen the pay this bill and do
not pay that one that form the basis of most<br><br>council or
commission meetings, its nice to think that their is some call to<br><br>
civic duty. That is what the people who want the pledge are looking for, a<br>
symbolism that calls the proceeding into its place.<br><br>Can a unit
that does not make formation ve effective in combat? Sure, but<br>its
more likely to be a unit through the sense that formation brings. Even<br>
with Formations and the rest that unit can still break down and members of<br>
it can and do screw the pooch, but its a form that tends to assist
most of<br>us.<br><br>So, the pledge is not the only thing that can
add that form and symbolism to<br><br>council meetings, but it is one
of the possible forms. Just like formation<br>telling a troop that he
now has to put aside his persnal desires to act as a<br><br>unit, some
opening form at the start of a council meeting is there to give<br>
that council the sense that they now are to put aside their personal
agendas<br><br>and act as the unit charged with overseeing the public
weal for the people<br>who elected them.<br><br>Lacking such a symbol
will not end good government any more than lack of a<br>formation will
make a fighting unit unable to fight, but time has told us<br>that
some forms increase the odds of better performance. Pick your symbol,<br>
but remember that for many the Pledge is one of the more powerful.<br><br>Phil
Nisbet<br><br><br><br>>From: "J Ford" <privatejf32 hotmail.com="#DEFAULT"><br>
>To: pcnisbet1@hotmail.com<br>>Subject: RE: [Vision2020] The pledge
Controversy<br>>Date: Fri, 27 Jan 2006 00:30:33 -0800<br>><br>
>While I agree with most of what you say, I must add that those that
are<br>>gripping the loudest about the pledge not being said (a) do
not themselves<br>>make that kind of demand of themselves; (b) do not
attend the majority of<br>>the meetings held at City Hall; (c) gripe
because that is what they do<br>>best.<br>><br>>I personally do
not see the need to open each and every single meeting with<br><br>
>the pledge; just like I did not understand us having to say it EVERY
single<br><br>>day at school. As I have stated before and others have
stated, saying it<br>>does NOT in any way, shape or form guarantee
that the person will follow<br>>the pledge, adhere to its standards,
continue to be accountable to the<br>>citizens of this town/country or
even believe in what it says.<br>><br>>I like Nancy's idea of
opening with some kind of statement to set the tone,<br><br>>but if
the Council didn't do that I would not be offended or hurt or feel<br>
>like they were not being loyal to this country or city.<br>><br>
>During my time in the military, when we would fall in, go through<br>
>inspection, report for duty, we did not say the pledge or sing the anthem.<br><br>
>That did not make us any less loyal or dutiful to this country or the<br>
>citizens.<br>><br>>Seriously, where were the people four years
ago when the pledge or opening<br>>statements were not even thought of
being done? Why this fuss now? I<br>>think a mole hill is being made
into a mountain simply for joy of doing so<br>>by those doing it.<br>
><br>>My thoughts - take them for what they're worth.<br>><br>>J :]<br>
><br>><br>><br>><br>>>From: "Phil Nisbet" <pcnisbet1 hotmail.com="#DEFAULT"><br>
>>To: vision2020@moscow.com<br>>>Subject: [Vision2020] The pledge
Controversy<br>>>Date: Thu, 26 Jan 2006 23:41:22 -0800<br>>><br>
>>I had a say earlier and figured that it was sufficient to the day, but the<br><br>
>>huge volume of traffic on this issue has me scratching my head.<br>>><br>
>>There are some with honest opinions here on both sides. Chas, for an<br>
>>example, is a non-conformist and hates all things related to pledges. His<br><br>
>>opinion on the subject and his feelings are valid and need to be<br>
>>respected. Similarly, those who want the pledge said have solid
feelings<br>>>on the subject and valid desires to see the pledge said
as a symbol of<br>>>their own love of country and they deserve as much
respect as Chas does.<br>>><br>>>One of the people I had dinner
with last night had something very valid to<br><br>>>say. He noted
that at his age he still tripped over the portion of the<br>>>pledge
that was added in the 1950's and that he had an easier time of it<br>
>>when it was not there. He still preferred to have some sort of a<br>
>>patriotic opening to a governmental proceeding.<br>>><br>>>Nancy
says that she wants to vary things as opening statements before the<br>
>>meeting to set the tone. I would say that is fine, one meeting the<br>
>>pledge, the next meeting the national anthem, the next a brief patriotic<br>
>>poem, what ever. What ever the pick for opening, pledge or song or poem<br>
>>or speech portion, it needs to reflect civic participation in the great<br>
>>American political process.<br>>><br>>>This need not have been a
controversy had this idea been circulated in the<br><br>>>first place.
If at the first meeting it had been made clear that that was<br><br>
>>the plan, I do not see the kind of concerns that have been aired. The<br>
>>problem occurs when actions to make changes are made without the public<br>
>>being informed, in effect, the public having to discover by word of mouth<br>
>>and Listserver that a change has happened without their knowledge.<br>
>><br>>>So perhaps we can get Nancy to post her ideas and she
can also inform the<br>>>papers with a list of the openings she
intends and the controversy can die<br><br>>>down. Heck, she can open
a suggestion box for citizen preferred openings<br>>>to council
meetings and then everybody can get a crack at picking one.<br>>><br>
>>I nominate,"I am not an Athenian or a Greek, but a citizen of the world"<br>
>>Socrates, in hopes of getting Chas and his kindred spirits into the idea.<br>
>><br>>>Phil Nisbet<br>>><br>>>PS On the other hand there
have been one heck of a lot of not very honest<br><br>>>answers on
this subject. Those of you who expressed things not your own<br>
>>opinion just to make political hay know who you are and that is from
all<br>>>sides. Its exceptionally bad when an official plays finger
pointing as if<br><br>>>that offical was not involved.<br>>><br>
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