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<DIV><FONT size=4>Beth,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4>Thank you for your comment on Nick's article.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4>Since you are such an authority on these matters perhaps you
can explain the following:</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4><EM></EM></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4><EM>Matthew</EM>, the first gospel of the <EM>New
Testament</EM>, starts out with "The Genealogy of Jesus the Messiah." We
are given a long, impressive list of begaters from Abraham through David
through Joseph. The list is intended to show that Jesus fulfills the
prophecy the Messiah will be descended from Abraham and/or David.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4>Let us assume the this account of the lineage is
correct. (There is another contradictory lineage in the <EM>New
Testament.) </EM>I assume also that you know what begating means:
the depositing of seed into the mother by the father during sexual
contact.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4>If Jesus is descend from Abraham and/or David through Jesus,
how did that happen with a virgin birth? Without Joseph doing any
begating?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4>I am sure you see the problem:</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff size=4>If Jesus was the victim of a virgin birth, then
Joseph was not the begater. Thus Jesus is not descended from Abraham
and/or David through Joseph, hence the <FONT color=#ff0000>genealogy</FONT>
which are the first words of the <EM>New Testament</EM> serves no
purpose, hence <FONT color=#ff0000>is useless</FONT>.
Curious.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff size=4></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff size=4>On the other hand if Jesus is descended from
Abraham/David through Joseph, Joseph must have gotten some begating in, hence no
virgin birth.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4>I am sure someone with your grasp of these things can give a
solution to this small problem in simple terms so that all of us
understand.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4>Thank you.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4><BR>Art Deco (Wayne A. Fox)<BR><A
href="mailto:deco@moscow.com">deco@moscow.com</A><BR></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4>----- Original Message ----- </FONT>
<DIV><FONT size=4>From: "Beth Covington" <</FONT><A
href="mailto:bethbirei@gmail.com"><FONT
size=4>bethbirei@gmail.com</FONT></A><FONT size=4>></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4>To: <</FONT><A href="mailto:vision2020@moscow.com"><FONT
size=4>vision2020@moscow.com</FONT></A><FONT size=4>></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4>Sent: Monday, December 19, 2005 10:52 AM</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4>Subject: Re: [Vision2020] The Christmas Story and Other
Redeeming Myths</FONT></DIV></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4><BR></FONT></DIV><FONT size=4>> Mr. Gier,<BR>> <BR>>
I'm afraid you flatter yourself. Neither you nor any other skeptic,<BR>>
critic or grinch has ever come close to spoiling the Christmas story.<BR>> On
the contrary, by providing us with a sort of grayish but<BR>>
"socio-psychologically" important version of the story, you do us all<BR>> a
great favor. You make the true one, with all its wonderful<BR>>
impossibilities (I marvel that you left out the detail of Christ's<BR>>
virgin birth, which is even more difficult to account for or<BR>> accomplish
than a worldwide Roman census), shine even brighter against<BR>> its
backdrop. Thank you.<BR>> <BR>> Merry Christmas,<BR>> Beth
Covington<BR>> <BR>> <BR>> On 12/18/05, Nick Gier <</FONT><A
href="mailto:ngier@uidaho.edu"><FONT size=4>ngier@uidaho.edu</FONT></A><FONT
size=4>> wrote:<BR>>> Greetings
Visionaries:<BR>>><BR>>> I'm sending a copy of this to Ed
Iverson. He and I were writing columns about the Christmas story
independently and we have very different ideas about the historicity of the
events recorded. Before I sent this off to my column venues, I always like
this list to be the first to read it, if its members are so
inclined.<BR>>><BR>>> On another topic, I just want to say
that I've sent a copy of the exchange on Einstein and Quantum Mechanics to the
UI professor who teaches this stuff. Now that I think of it, I will also
send it to my ex brother-in-law in Denmark, a world class low temperature
physicist, from whom I've learned a lot about contemporary
physics.<BR>>><BR>>> For now let me just repeat my charge that
Phil Nisbet is simply wrong to state that Einsteain developed Quatum
Mechanics. Contrary to what Phil claims, Heisenberg's uncertainty
principle is essential to quantum theory as it has been developed and has been
verified time and time again. To say that Einstein "developed" the theory
by trying to include it in a unified theory that did not include uncertainty is
really off the wall.<BR>>><BR>>> Happy Holidays to each and
all,<BR>>><BR>>> Nick Gier<BR>>><BR>>> The
Christmas Story and Other Redeeming Myths<BR>>><BR>>> By Nick
Gier<BR>>><BR>>> A myth is a tale that tells
truth--Anonymous<BR>>><BR>>> At the risk of being a
Grinch who ruins Christmas, I would like to go behind the Christmas Story and
relate what scholars know about the biblical texts involved. I hope that the
result will be a more enlightened perspective on the role of such stories in the
common life of humankind.<BR>>><BR>>> In the second chapter of
Matthew we read the story of wise men who came from the East to worship the baby
Jesus. These men are called magoi (Greek for magicians), and scholars have
identified them, if they were there, as Zoroastrian priests from
Babylon.<BR>>><BR>>> There are several problems with this
story. If they were following a star in the East, they would have traveled
East, not West, to Palestine. That means that they would have been heading
in the direction of the birth of a Hindu savior, not a Jewish one. But
most likely, they would have been searching for their own savior, one named
Saosyant.<BR>>><BR>>> The Jewish historian Josephus hated King
Herod and chronicled his life in great detail, but it is very odd that he never
mentions the slaughter of infants found in Matthew 2:16. Could this be an
element of what I call the "Savior Archetype," common patterns of events that
are attributed to many of the world's saviors? See </FONT><A
href="http://www.class.uidaho.edu/ngier/archetype.htm"><FONT
size=4>www.class.uidaho.edu/ngier/archetype.htm</FONT></A><FONT
size=4>.<BR>>><BR>>> In the their various scriptures the
saviors are said to have had royal genealogies and miraculous conceptions; they
worked miracles and escaped the clutches of death. Jesus, Krishna, and
Zoroaster were also threatened in infancy by demon
kings.<BR>>><BR>>> Returning now to the beginning of the
story, there is no record of Caesar Augustus' decree that "all the world should
be enrolled" (Luke 2:1). The Romans kept extremely detailed records of
such events. Not only is Luke's census not in these records, it goes
against all that we know of Roman economic
history.<BR>>><BR>>> In Josephus' account of the Roman census
in 6 C.E., he writes that those people taxed were assessed of their possessions,
including lands and livestock. But Luke has Joseph and Mary making a
three-day journey, away from their home and possessions in Nazareth, to register
in their alleged ancestral home in Bethlehem.<BR>>><BR>>> An
Egyptian papyrus recording a census in 104 C.E. states that "since registration
by household is imminent, it is necessary to notify all who for any reason are
absent from their districts to return to their own homes that they may carry out
the ordinary business of registration." For more on Luke's census see </FONT><A
href="http://www.class.uidaho.edu/ngier/census.htm"><FONT
size=4>www.class.uidaho.edu/ngier/census.htm</FONT></A><FONT
size=4>.<BR>>><BR>>> Imagine a system of taxation based on
people returning to their ancestral homes, going back a thousand years in the
case of Joseph. By this time the Jews were spread out all over the known
world. Can we seriously believe that the Romans would have required them
to come back to Palestine, carrying everything they
owned?<BR>>><BR>>> In The Rise of Christianity Bishop E. W.
Barnes remarks: "The Romans were a practical race, skilled in the art of
government. It is incredible that they should have taken a census
according to such a fantastic system. If any such census had been taken,
the dislocation to which it would have led would have been
world-wide."<BR>>><BR>>> We can now understand why Jesus never
mentions his birth in Bethlehem; and that, except for the birth stories, Jesus
is always connected with Nazareth. The authors of the Gospel of John
apparently do not know of Jesus' alleged birth in Bethlehem. Nathanael
does not know it (7:46), and no one answers the challenge of the crowd when they
say: "Is the Christ to come from Galilee? Has not the scriptures said that the
Christ...comes from Bethlehem?" (7:42).<BR>>><BR>>> At this
point some readers may be saying: "Way to go, Gier, you've just spoiled
Christmas more than any commercial enterprise could ever
do."<BR>>><BR>>> Let me tell you about a wise woman in an
African village whose job it was to instruct the children in the tribe's
myths. She began each session with the following disclaimer: "The stories
that I will tell you are not true, but they are the most important stories that
you will ever hear."<BR>>><BR>>> In India it is the
grandmother's task to teach Hindu mythology to the children. These are
fantastic tales of great heroes and heroines, but also much violence, death, and
sex. Their graphic "in your face" style, not too different from Grimm's
Fairy Tales or many Old Testament stories, has a very important
socio-psychological purpose.<BR>>><BR>>> In Europe and
America, where we pride ourselves (even very religious people do) by living
without myth and legend, we still pay huge sums to psychotherapists to help us
recover from unresolved experiences of violence, death, and sex. I've
always thought that Hindu mythology serves as a fairly effective substitute for
a mental health program that the Indians cannot
afford.<BR>>><BR>>> This Sunday I will enjoy, and be redeemed
by, the performance of Handel's Messiah, and in the choir of my Unitarian
church, where most members think they have left myths far behind, we will be
singing hymns to a miraculous child, born in the darkest time of the year, who
brings the light of hope to a broken world.<BR>>><BR>>><BR>>>
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