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<DIV><FONT size=4>Donovan,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4>Thank you for spectacularly illustrating the points I made the
post below:</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4>This earlier post from Nils Peterson covers the subject
nicely.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT
size=4>___________________________________________________</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4><FONT size=3>There are several local resources for help
understanding and learning to use<BR>tools that make computers generally, and
web and email in particular,<BR>accessible to blind and visually impaired
individuals. Each campus has a<BR>disability resource center, and downtown
Moscow is the non-profit<BR>organization Disability Action Center. Any of these
contact points can<BR>either answer your questions or direct you to resources
who can.</FONT><BR></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT
size=4>___________________________________________________</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4>Here is one link which, if you wish you be helpful to
blind friend:</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4><A
href="http://www.qwertystudios.com/sn/product.html">http://www.qwertystudios.com/sn/product.html</A></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4>Note the message:</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><!--StartFragment --> <FONT
face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size=-1>Hello! I'm Speaking
Notepad! I am useful and handy analog of Microsoft Notepad. But as you can see,
I can speak! <FONT color=#0000ff size=4><STRONG>I'll read your TXT, DOC, <FONT
color=#ff0000 size=5>HTML</FONT> and RTF documents, readme's, notes, <FONT
color=#ff0000 size=5>e-mails</FONT> and clever and interesting thoughts
aloud!</STRONG></FONT> With my help you'll solve a lot of your problems at home
or in the office. Just imagine, how it's easier to listen to texts rather than
read them. Give a rest to your eyes. I can also read texts with different
voices, speeds and pitches, read clipboard content, read text into WAV or MP3
sound file and even read every word your are typing. That means that while
typing some text you may even not look at screen at all and control your typing
orally. I'm designed for people who knows the value of fast and comfortable work
and entertainment. I'm sure, we'll become friends.</FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4>The price for this software is $14.95.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4>Here is another link:</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4><A
href="http://www.audioutilities.com/text-to-voice/text-to-speech.htm">http://www.audioutilities.com/text-to-voice/text-to-speech.htm</A></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4>Note the message:</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><!--StartFragment --> Read Text in any application, including
<STRONG><FONT color=#0000ff size=4>Emails</FONT></STRONG>, <STRONG><FONT
color=#0000ff size=4>web pages</FONT></STRONG>, news articles, PDF, Word or
Excel Documents, etc. </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4>The price for this software is $24.95.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4>I do not pretend to be an expert but here is a link from an
organization who is:</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4><A
href="http://www.macular.org/lowvis/readers.html">http://www.macular.org/lowvis/readers.html</A></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4>They recommend:</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4>Connect Outloud </FONT><FONT size=4><A
href="http://www.freedomscientific.com/fs_products/software_connect.asp">http://www.freedomscientific.com/fs_products/software_connect.asp</A></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4>Read Please <A
href="http://www.readplease.com/">http://www.readplease.com/</A></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4>Instead of exhibiting yourself further, please help your
blind friend by referring him to the resources Nils Peterson gives and the
ones listed above. If your blind friend still cannot find a text to voice
program that reads HTML email satisfactorily, give him my email address and
I'll be glad to try to help him.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4>However, if you or he expect any complex program to work
perfectly, a reality check is recommended.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4><BR>Art Deco (Wayne A. Fox)<BR><A
href="mailto:deco@moscow.com">deco@moscow.com</A><BR></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4>----- Original Message ----- </FONT>
<DIV><FONT size=4>From: "Donovan Arnold" <</FONT><A
href="mailto:donovanjarnold2005@yahoo.com"><FONT
size=4>donovanjarnold2005@yahoo.com</FONT></A><FONT size=4>></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4>To: "Art Deco" <</FONT><A
href="mailto:deco@moscow.com"><FONT size=4>deco@moscow.com</FONT></A><FONT
size=4>>; "Vision 2020" <</FONT><A
href="mailto:vision2020@moscow.com"><FONT
size=4>vision2020@moscow.com</FONT></A><FONT size=4>></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4>Sent: Friday, November 11, 2005 2:15 PM</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4>Subject: Re: [Vision2020] RE: HTML Formatting and the
Blind</FONT></DIV></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4><BR></FONT></DIV><FONT size=4>> Wayne,<BR>> <BR>> You
will have to forgive me, I was unaware that you<BR>> were an expert on the
disabled and computer software. <BR>> <BR>> I want to thank you for
letting me know that this<BR>> graduate student, that is blind, is in fact
obviously<BR>> an idiot. That he was not smart enough to try buying<BR>>
or purchasing a program for converting HTML format.<BR>> How did he ever get
into graduate school? <BR>> <BR>> Either that or there is still no program
that converts<BR>> all HTML formats perfectly. Clearly, this guy had
his<BR>> wife drive him all the way up from Lewiston and came<BR>> into
our office to complain about the HTML formatting,<BR>> all for nothing. Being
a blind graduate student, he<BR>> obviously would be oblivious of disability
support<BR>> services, CO-AD, the Disability Action Center, or<BR>>
bothered to research what computer technologies were<BR>> available for the
blind. He is blind, so obviously, as<BR>> Wayne implies, he is stupid and
helpless, unable to<BR>> figure this out on his own.<BR>> <BR>> But,
why should I listen to a blind intelligent<BR>> graduate student who gives
lectures and conferences,<BR>> and uses the programs on a daily basis when
instead I<BR>> can listen to Wayne Fox, expert on the blind and<BR>>
computer software capabilities.<BR>> <BR>> If the software box claims to
convert HTML format to<BR>> plain text format, clearly it does 100% of the
time,<BR>> regardless or font, color, graphic, or italics,<BR>> because we
all know that software works perfectly and<BR>> it is the people that use
them that are idiots. <BR>> <BR>> What Wayne fails to realize is that not
all HTML<BR>> formatting converts perfectly to plain text so that a<BR>>
program that reads the words out loud for the blind<BR>> work well. It
depends on what is in the HTML<BR>> formatting, like if someone uses italics,
it does not<BR>> work. I trust the words of blind people over that of<BR>>
Wayne Fox. And you will find that most graduate<BR>> students that are blind
have already exhaustively<BR>> explored all resources for accessing written
text.<BR>> <BR>> Take Care,<BR>> <BR>> Donovan J Arnold <BR>>
<BR>> PS. Maybe you can tell him some other problems that<BR>> blind
people have and how to deal with it, since you<BR>> are such the expert,
Wayne.<BR>> <BR>> <BR>> <BR>> --- Art Deco <</FONT><A
href="mailto:deco@moscow.com"><FONT size=4>deco@moscow.com</FONT></A><FONT
size=4>> wrote:<BR>> <BR>>> Donovan,<BR>>> <BR>>> I can
only repeat what Rose recently said, but a<BR>>> little differently.
If you <BR>>> continue to make asinine assertions about
matters<BR>>> where ignorance is your <BR>>> chief qualification,
then what little credibility<BR>>> you have left will be <BR>>>
eviscerated.<BR>>> <BR>>> Most email processors can be set to
translate HTML<BR>>> emails into plaintext <BR>>> before the reader
even views them. The effect is<BR>>> that the email appears as
<BR>>> a plaintext document and can be processed by most<BR>>> text
to voice programs as <BR>>> such. If the blind and visually disabled
are having<BR>>> problems with HTML <BR>>> email with their
particular programs, they need to<BR>>> switch to translators <BR>>>
that work with them. Such programs do exist and are<BR>>> widely
available.<BR>>> <BR>>> For example, the blind, contrary to your
assertion,<BR>>> can surf the web with <BR>>> several different
popular browsers when certain<BR>>> add-ins are used. Perhaps
<BR>>> you don't understand, but all websites are written<BR>>> in a
language which needs <BR>>> to be translated. Most primarily use
HTML and/or<BR>>> its many variants. Some <BR>>> are now
completely written in XML. Websites are not<BR>>> written in
plaintext.<BR>>> <BR>>> You may test the truth of this yourself
using<BR>>> Microsoft Internet Explorer <BR>>> for
example:<BR>>> <BR>>> 1. Go to any
website.<BR>>> 2. Place the cursor somewhere on a
webpage but<BR>>> not on a graphic.<BR>>> 3. Right
click.<BR>>> 4. From the menu that appears, choose and
click<BR>>> on View Source.<BR>>> 5. Contemplate
what you see.<BR>>> 6. Tell us what you see and what you
think it<BR>>> means.<BR>>> <BR>>> You say:<BR>>>
<BR>>> "I just learned today..."<BR>>> <BR>>> Perhaps you need
better and more sources. Perhaps,<BR>>> Janesta and/or someone
<BR>>> who works with the disabled can provide more<BR>>>
information about where to <BR>>> acquire general text to voice programs
that work<BR>>> with HTML.<BR>>> <BR>>> Although many V
2020ers may have placed you on their<BR>>> Bozo Filter, I haven't,
<BR>>> because occasionally you make some well thought out<BR>>> and
cogent observations. <BR>>> The number of these now is few and far
between. You<BR>>> appear to be guided in <BR>>>
discussions by high school debate tactics where the<BR>>> goal is to
win points <BR>>> based on some forensic scoring system, rather
than<BR>>> exploring an issue. This <BR>>> is a common
practice among those you are an<BR>>> apologist for. It is a very
<BR>>> common practice among the CCC apologists, for<BR>>> example,
Dale Courtney, <BR>>> Douglas Wilson, Thomas Garfield, Roy Atwood.
etc.<BR>>> <BR>>> If you want to be taken as a credible voice,
perhaps<BR>>> you should look before <BR>>> you leap.<BR>>>
<BR>>> I expect your response to this post will be to<BR>>> ignore
the facts presented <BR>>> and to spew more irrelevant abuse or make up
more<BR>>> information. You should <BR>>> think carefully
about this. If you do not change<BR>>> this kind of behavior, you
<BR>>> will likely not be encouraged to help any more local<BR>>>
political candidates. <BR>>> Peg Hamlet has just learned a lesson in this
regard,<BR>>> just as Linda Pike did.<BR>>> <BR>>> It is very
unlikely this post will have any effect<BR>>> on your behavior patterns
<BR>>> because of the post's author. Perhaps you ask<BR>>>
someone you trust and who is <BR>>> a normal person to be brutally frank
with you on<BR>>> this issue.<BR>>> <BR>>> <BR>>> Art
Deco (Wayne A. Fox)<BR>>> </FONT><A href="mailto:deco@moscow.com"><FONT
size=4>deco@moscow.com</FONT></A><BR><FONT size=4>>> <BR>>>
<BR>>> ----- Original Message ----- <BR>>> From: "Donovan
Arnold"<BR>>> <</FONT><A
href="mailto:donovanjarnold2005@yahoo.com"><FONT
size=4>donovanjarnold2005@yahoo.com</FONT></A><FONT size=4>><BR>>> To:
"Saundra Lund" <</FONT><A href="mailto:sslund@adelphia.net"><FONT
size=4>sslund@adelphia.net</FONT></A><FONT size=4>>; "'Chasuk'"<BR>>>
<</FONT><A href="mailto:chasuk@gmail.com"><FONT
size=4>chasuk@gmail.com</FONT></A><FONT size=4>>; <BR>>> "'Vision
2020'" <</FONT><A href="mailto:vision2020@moscow.com"><FONT
size=4>vision2020@moscow.com</FONT></A><FONT size=4>><BR>>> Sent:
Friday, November 11, 2005 1:41 AM<BR>>> Subject: [Vision2020] RE: HTML
Formatting and the<BR>>> Blind<BR>>> <BR>>> <BR>>> >I
just learned today, that when a person writes in<BR>>> > those large
awkward fonts, even just italics,<BR>>> programs<BR>>> > that
read text for the blind and visually impaired<BR>>> > cannot read them.
So just another reason to avoid<BR>>> > HTML, be inclusive.<BR>>>
><BR>>> > --DJA<BR>>> ><BR>>> ><BR>>>
><BR>>> > --- Saundra Lund <</FONT><A
href="mailto:sslund@adelphia.net"><FONT
size=4>sslund@adelphia.net</FONT></A><FONT size=4>> wrote:<BR>>>
><BR>>> >> Chas wrote:<BR>>> >> "I, myself, hate HTML
formatting in e-mail. I<BR>>> don't<BR>>> >> want
enlarged fonts,<BR>>> >> images, color, or anything but plain
text. Am I<BR>>> a<BR>>> >> curmudgeon, or do
others<BR>>> >> agree with me?"<BR>>> >><BR>>>
>> Well, I don't hate HTML, I just won't use it due<BR>>>
to<BR>>> >> security concerns :-)<BR>>> >> I don't
mind "reading" messages in HTML format<BR>>> from<BR>>> >>
people I know, but I<BR>>> >> won't take the risks for just
anyone ;-)<BR>>> >><BR>>> >> Also, I've been
around long enough to clearly<BR>>> >> remember the complaints
from<BR>>> >> people using dial-up -- HTML messages are
larger<BR>>> &<BR>>> >> therefore take longer
to<BR>>> >> receive, which I suppose was more of a
hardship<BR>>> back<BR>>> >> when most folks paid<BR>>>
>> for their online time based on use rather than on<BR>>> >>
unlimited connection time.<BR>>> >> I still hear folks complaining
about the time it<BR>>> >> takes to download HTML<BR>>>
>> messages, though.<BR>>> >><BR>>> >> But, I'll
take the opportunity to piggy-back on<BR>>> your<BR>>> >>
poll :-) After a<BR>>> >> series of unscientific
studies, I've determined<BR>>> that<BR>>> >> after posting to
V2020,<BR>>> >> I get absolutely inundated with virus
attempts,<BR>>> and<BR>>> >> I'm wondering if
anyone<BR>>> >> else experiences this?<BR>>>
>><BR>>> >> The good news (for me, anyway) is that
my<BR>>> computer<BR>>> >> is very secure, so the<BR>>>
>> attempts fail :-) However, it is annoying, and<BR>>>
it<BR>>> >> could be a major problem<BR>>> >> for those
who don't practice safe computing. If<BR>>> >> others have
experienced<BR>>> >> this, I wonder if that might contribute to
the<BR>>> lack<BR>>> >> of participation on<BR>>>
>> V2020 by more community members.<BR>>> >><BR>>>
>><BR>>> >> Saundra Lund<BR>>> >> Moscow,
ID<BR>>> >><BR>>> >> The only thing necessary for the
triumph of evil<BR>>> is<BR>>> >> for good people to
do<BR>>> >> nothing.<BR>>> >> Edmund Burke<BR>>>
>><BR>>> >> ***** Original material contained herein
is<BR>>> >> Copyright 2005, Saundra Lund.<BR>>> >> Do
not copy, forward, excerpt, or reproduce<BR>>> outside<BR>>>
>> the Vision 2020 forum<BR>>> >> without the express written
permission of the<BR>>> >> author.*****<BR>>>
>><BR>>> >><BR>>> >><BR>>> <BR>>===
message truncated ===<BR>> <BR>> <BR>> <BR>> <BR>>
__________________________________ <BR>> Yahoo! Mail - PC Magazine Editors'
Choice 2005 <BR>> </FONT><A href="http://mail.yahoo.com"><FONT
size=4>http://mail.yahoo.com</FONT></A><BR><FONT size=4>> <BR>>
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