<DIV>
<DIV>Wayne,</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Just because he is blind, does not mean he is an idiot. Do you honestly think that he is unaware of any of the programs, facilities, or organizations available for the blind? Do you think, that you can offer any information that he does not already know or researched thoroughly himself? You think he got into graduate school without the ability to do that kind of research? Do you honestly think he did not go on-line, make phone calls, and try different programs? Do you think he is not smart enough to check with local disability organizations for help? </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Let me explain it to you this way. He is smarter than you, he has already explored all of the suggestions you have made, and many more. He is not able to find a program that reads italics, and HTML effectively and reliably with current programs available for the blind. </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>You can either believe he is an idiot, or that he is telling the truth. I really do not care. </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>I do not pretend or assert that I am an expert on being blind or computer software. But I trust his word over your assumption that he is a complete idiot that is not aware of HTML translation. and verbal speaking programs, I bet he can even name some you cannot.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Take Care,</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Donovan J Arnold</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><BR><BR><B><I>Art Deco <deco@moscow.com></I></B> wrote:</DIV>
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<DIV><FONT size=4>Donovan,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4>Thank you for spectacularly illustrating the points I made the post below:</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4>This earlier post from Nils Peterson covers the subject nicely.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4>___________________________________________________</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4><FONT size=3>There are several local resources for help understanding and learning to use<BR>tools that make computers generally, and web and email in particular,<BR>accessible to blind and visually impaired individuals. Each campus has a<BR>disability resource center, and downtown Moscow is the non-profit<BR>organization Disability Action Center. Any of these contact points can<BR>either answer your questions or direct you to resources who can.</FONT><BR></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4>___________________________________________________</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4>Here is one link which, if you wish you be helpful to blind friend:</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4><A href="http://www.qwertystudios.com/sn/product.html">http://www.qwertystudios.com/sn/product.html</A></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4>Note the message:</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><!--StartFragment --> <FONT face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size=-1>Hello! I'm Speaking Notepad! I am useful and handy analog of Microsoft Notepad. But as you can see, I can speak! <FONT color=#0000ff size=4><STRONG>I'll read your TXT, DOC, <FONT color=#ff0000 size=5>HTML</FONT> and RTF documents, readme's, notes, <FONT color=#ff0000 size=5>e-mails</FONT> and clever and interesting thoughts aloud!</STRONG></FONT> With my help you'll solve a lot of your problems at home or in the office. Just imagine, how it's easier to listen to texts rather than read them. Give a rest to your eyes. I can also read texts with different voices, speeds and pitches, read clipboard content, read text into WAV or MP3 sound file and even read every word your are typing. That means that while typing some text you may even not look at screen at all and control your typing orally. I'm designed for people who knows the value of fast and comfortable work and entertainment. I'm su!
re, we'll
become friends.</FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4>The price for this software is $14.95.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4>Here is another link:</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4><A href="http://www.audioutilities.com/text-to-voice/text-to-speech.htm">http://www.audioutilities.com/text-to-voice/text-to-speech.htm</A></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4>Note the message:</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><!--StartFragment --> Read Text in any application, including <STRONG><FONT color=#0000ff size=4>Emails</FONT></STRONG>, <STRONG><FONT color=#0000ff size=4>web pages</FONT></STRONG>, news articles, PDF, Word or Excel Documents, etc. </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4>The price for this software is $24.95.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4>I do not pretend to be an expert but here is a link from an organization who is:</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4><A href="http://www.macular.org/lowvis/readers.html">http://www.macular.org/lowvis/readers.html</A></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4>They recommend:</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4>Connect Outloud </FONT><FONT size=4><A href="http://www.freedomscientific.com/fs_products/software_connect.asp">http://www.freedomscientific.com/fs_products/software_connect.asp</A></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4>Read Please <A href="http://www.readplease.com/">http://www.readplease.com/</A></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4>Instead of exhibiting yourself further, please help your blind friend by referring him to the resources Nils Peterson gives and the ones listed above. If your blind friend still cannot find a text to voice program that reads HTML email satisfactorily, give him my email address and I'll be glad to try to help him.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4>However, if you or he expect any complex program to work perfectly, a reality check is recommended.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4><BR>Art Deco (Wayne A. Fox)<BR><A href="mailto:deco@moscow.com">deco@moscow.com</A><BR></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4>----- Original Message ----- </FONT>
<DIV><FONT size=4>From: "Donovan Arnold" <</FONT><A href="mailto:donovanjarnold2005@yahoo.com"><FONT size=4>donovanjarnold2005@yahoo.com</FONT></A><FONT size=4>></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4>To: "Art Deco" <</FONT><A href="mailto:deco@moscow.com"><FONT size=4>deco@moscow.com</FONT></A><FONT size=4>>; "Vision 2020" <</FONT><A href="mailto:vision2020@moscow.com"><FONT size=4>vision2020@moscow.com</FONT></A><FONT size=4>></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4>Sent: Friday, November 11, 2005 2:15 PM</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4>Subject: Re: [Vision2020] RE: HTML Formatting and the Blind</FONT></DIV></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4><BR></FONT></DIV><FONT size=4>> Wayne,<BR>> <BR>> You will have to forgive me, I was unaware that you<BR>> were an expert on the disabled and computer software. <BR>> <BR>> I want to thank you for letting me know that this<BR>> graduate student, that is blind, is in fact obviously<BR>> an idiot. That he was not smart enough to try buying<BR>> or purchasing a program for converting HTML format.<BR>> How did he ever get into graduate school? <BR>> <BR>> Either that or there is still no program that converts<BR>> all HTML formats perfectly. Clearly, this guy had his<BR>> wife drive him all the way up from Lewiston and came<BR>> into our office to complain about the HTML formatting,<BR>> all for nothing. Being a blind graduate student, he<BR>> obviously would be oblivious of disability support<BR>> services, CO-AD, the Disability Action Center, or<BR>> bothered to research what computer technologies were<!
BR>>
available for the blind. He is blind, so obviously, as<BR>> Wayne implies, he is stupid and helpless, unable to<BR>> figure this out on his own.<BR>> <BR>> But, why should I listen to a blind intelligent<BR>> graduate student who gives lectures and conferences,<BR>> and uses the programs on a daily basis when instead I<BR>> can listen to Wayne Fox, expert on the blind and<BR>> computer software capabilities.<BR>> <BR>> If the software box claims to convert HTML format to<BR>> plain text format, clearly it does 100% of the time,<BR>> regardless or font, color, graphic, or italics,<BR>> because we all know that software works perfectly and<BR>> it is the people that use them that are idiots. <BR>> <BR>> What Wayne fails to realize is that not all HTML<BR>> formatting converts perfectly to plain text so that a<BR>> program that reads the words out loud for the blind<BR>> work well. It depends on what is in the HTML<BR>&g!
t;
formatting, like if someone uses italics, it does not<BR>> work. I trust the words of blind people over that of<BR>> Wayne Fox. And you will find that most graduate<BR>> students that are blind have already exhaustively<BR>> explored all resources for accessing written text.<BR>> <BR>> Take Care,<BR>> <BR>> Donovan J Arnold <BR>> <BR>> PS. Maybe you can tell him some other problems that<BR>> blind people have and how to deal with it, since you<BR>> are such the expert, Wayne.<BR>> <BR>> <BR>> <BR>> --- Art Deco <</FONT><A href="mailto:deco@moscow.com"><FONT size=4>deco@moscow.com</FONT></A><FONT size=4>> wrote:<BR>> <BR>>> Donovan,<BR>>> <BR>>> I can only repeat what Rose recently said, but a<BR>>> little differently. If you <BR>>> continue to make asinine assertions about matters<BR>>> where ignorance is your <BR>>> chief qualification, then what little
credibility<BR>>> you have left will be <BR>>> eviscerated.<BR>>> <BR>>> Most email processors can be set to translate HTML<BR>>> emails into plaintext <BR>>> before the reader even views them. The effect is<BR>>> that the email appears as <BR>>> a plaintext document and can be processed by most<BR>>> text to voice programs as <BR>>> such. If the blind and visually disabled are having<BR>>> problems with HTML <BR>>> email with their particular programs, they need to<BR>>> switch to translators <BR>>> that work with them. Such programs do exist and are<BR>>> widely available.<BR>>> <BR>>> For example, the blind, contrary to your assertion,<BR>>> can surf the web with <BR>>> several different popular browsers when certain<BR>>> add-ins are used. Perhaps <BR>>> you don't understand, but all websites are written<BR>>> in a l!
anguage
which needs <BR>>> to be translated. Most primarily use HTML and/or<BR>>> its many variants. Some <BR>>> are now completely written in XML. Websites are not<BR>>> written in plaintext.<BR>>> <BR>>> You may test the truth of this yourself using<BR>>> Microsoft Internet Explorer <BR>>> for example:<BR>>> <BR>>> 1. Go to any website.<BR>>> 2. Place the cursor somewhere on a webpage but<BR>>> not on a graphic.<BR>>> 3. Right click.<BR>>> 4. From the menu that appears, choose and click<BR>>> on View Source.<BR>>> 5. Contemplate what you see.<BR>>> 6. Tell us what you see and what you think it<BR>>> means.<BR>>> <BR>>> You say:<BR>>> <BR>>> "I just learned today..."<BR>>> <BR>>> Perhaps you need better and more
sources. Perhaps,<BR>>> Janesta and/or someone <BR>>> who works with the disabled can provide more<BR>>> information about where to <BR>>> acquire general text to voice programs that work<BR>>> with HTML.<BR>>> <BR>>> Although many V 2020ers may have placed you on their<BR>>> Bozo Filter, I haven't, <BR>>> because occasionally you make some well thought out<BR>>> and cogent observations. <BR>>> The number of these now is few and far between. You<BR>>> appear to be guided in <BR>>> discussions by high school debate tactics where the<BR>>> goal is to win points <BR>>> based on some forensic scoring system, rather than<BR>>> exploring an issue. This <BR>>> is a common practice among those you are an<BR>>> apologist for. It is a very <BR>>> common practice among the CCC apologists, for<BR>>> example, Dale Courtney, <BR>>> Do!
uglas
Wilson, Thomas Garfield, Roy Atwood. etc.<BR>>> <BR>>> If you want to be taken as a credible voice, perhaps<BR>>> you should look before <BR>>> you leap.<BR>>> <BR>>> I expect your response to this post will be to<BR>>> ignore the facts presented <BR>>> and to spew more irrelevant abuse or make up more<BR>>> information. You should <BR>>> think carefully about this. If you do not change<BR>>> this kind of behavior, you <BR>>> will likely not be encouraged to help any more local<BR>>> political candidates. <BR>>> Peg Hamlet has just learned a lesson in this regard,<BR>>> just as Linda Pike did.<BR>>> <BR>>> It is very unlikely this post will have any effect<BR>>> on your behavior patterns <BR>>> because of the post's author. Perhaps you ask<BR>>> someone you trust and who is <BR>>> a normal person to be brutally frank with you on<BR>!
>>
this issue.<BR>>> <BR>>> <BR>>> Art Deco (Wayne A. Fox)<BR>>> </FONT><A href="mailto:deco@moscow.com"><FONT size=4>deco@moscow.com</FONT></A><BR><FONT size=4>>> <BR>>> <BR>>> ----- Original Message ----- <BR>>> From: "Donovan Arnold"<BR>>> <</FONT><A href="mailto:donovanjarnold2005@yahoo.com"><FONT size=4>donovanjarnold2005@yahoo.com</FONT></A><FONT size=4>><BR>>> To: "Saundra Lund" <</FONT><A href="mailto:sslund@adelphia.net"><FONT size=4>sslund@adelphia.net</FONT></A><FONT size=4>>; "'Chasuk'"<BR>>> <</FONT><A href="mailto:chasuk@gmail.com"><FONT size=4>chasuk@gmail.com</FONT></A><FONT size=4>>; <BR>>> "'Vision 2020'" <</FONT><A href="mailto:vision2020@moscow.com"><FONT size=4>vision2020@moscow.com</FONT></A><FONT size=4>><BR>>> Sent: Friday, November 11, 2005 1:41 AM<BR>>> Subject: [Vision2020] RE: HTML Formatting and the<BR>>> Blind<BR>>> <BR>>>
<BR>>> >I just learned today, that when a person writes in<BR>>> > those large awkward fonts, even just italics,<BR>>> programs<BR>>> > that read text for the blind and visually impaired<BR>>> > cannot read them. So just another reason to avoid<BR>>> > HTML, be inclusive.<BR>>> ><BR>>> > --DJA<BR>>> ><BR>>> ><BR>>> ><BR>>> > --- Saundra Lund <</FONT><A href="mailto:sslund@adelphia.net"><FONT size=4>sslund@adelphia.net</FONT></A><FONT size=4>> wrote:<BR>>> ><BR>>> >> Chas wrote:<BR>>> >> "I, myself, hate HTML formatting in e-mail. I<BR>>> don't<BR>>> >> want enlarged fonts,<BR>>> >> images, color, or anything but plain text. Am I<BR>>> a<BR>>> >> curmudgeon, or do others<BR>>> >> agree with me?"<BR>>> >><BR>>> >> Well, I don't hate HTML, I!
just
won't use it due<BR>>> to<BR>>> >> security concerns :-)<BR>>> >> I don't mind "reading" messages in HTML format<BR>>> from<BR>>> >> people I know, but I<BR>>> >> won't take the risks for just anyone ;-)<BR>>> >><BR>>> >> Also, I've been around long enough to clearly<BR>>> >> remember the complaints from<BR>>> >> people using dial-up -- HTML messages are larger<BR>>> &<BR>>> >> therefore take longer to<BR>>> >> receive, which I suppose was more of a hardship<BR>>> back<BR>>> >> when most folks paid<BR>>> >> for their online time based on use rather than on<BR>>> >> unlimited connection time.<BR>>> >> I still hear folks complaining about the time it<BR>>> >> takes to download HTML<BR>>> >> messages, though.<BR>>> >><BR>>> >>!
; But,
I'll take the opportunity to piggy-back on<BR>>> your<BR>>> >> poll :-) After a<BR>>> >> series of unscientific studies, I've determined<BR>>> that<BR>>> >> after posting to V2020,<BR>>> >> I get absolutely inundated with virus attempts,<BR>>> and<BR>>> >> I'm wondering if anyone<BR>>> >> else experiences this?<BR>>> >><BR>>> >> The good news (for me, anyway) is that my<BR>>> computer<BR>>> >> is very secure, so the<BR>>> >> attempts fail :-) However, it is annoying, and<BR>>> it<BR>>> >> could be a major problem<BR>>> >> for those who don't practice safe computing. If<BR>>> >> others have experienced<BR>>> >> this, I wonder if that might contribute to the<BR>>> lack<BR>>> >> of participation on<BR>>> >> V2020 by more co!
mmunity
members.<BR>>> >><BR>>> >><BR>>> >> Saundra Lund<BR>>> >> Moscow, ID<BR>>> >><BR>>> >> The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil<BR>>> is<BR>>> >> for good people to do<BR>>> >> nothing.<BR>>> >> Edmund Burke<BR>>> >><BR>>> >> ***** Original material contained herein is<BR>>> >> Copyright 2005, Saundra Lund.<BR>>> >> Do not copy, forward, excerpt, or reproduce<BR>>> outside<BR>>> >> the Vision 2020 forum<BR>>> >> without the express written permission of the<BR>>> >> author.*****<BR>>> >><BR>>> >><BR>>> >><BR>>> <BR>>=== message truncated ===<BR>> <BR>> <BR>> <BR>> <BR>> __________________________________ <BR>> Yahoo! Mail - PC Magazine Editors' Choice 2005 <BR>> </FONT><A href="http://mail.yahoo.com/"!
><FONT
size=4>http://mail.yahoo.com</FONT></A><BR><FONT size=4>> <BR>> _____________________________________________________<BR>> List services made available by First Step Internet, <BR>> serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994. <BR>> </FONT><A href="http://www.fsr.net/"><FONT size=4>http://www.fsr.net</FONT></A><FONT size=4> <BR>> </FONT><A href="mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com"><FONT size=4>mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com</FONT></A><BR><FONT size=4>> ŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻ<BR>> <BR>></FONT> _____________________________________________________<BR>List services made available by First Step Internet, <BR>serving the communities of t!
he
Palouse since 1994. <BR>http://www.fsr.net <BR>mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com<BR>ŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻ<BR></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV><p>
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