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<DIV><FONT size=4>Donovan,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4>I am glad your friend is smart. Perhaps though he is not
omnipotent. It is just possible that by he and I working together we may
be able to find a way of improving the success rate of translating HTML
messages email in to voice, even those with <EM>Italics</EM>.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4>Again I offer him assistance. You need only give him my
email address <A href="mailto:waf@moscow.com">waf@moscow.com</A></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4>I cannot guarantee that I will be able to help him, but I have
had 35 years of experience at solving computer related problems.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4>Please respect his intelligence and judgment by letting
<STRONG><FONT size=5>him</FONT></STRONG> decide whether he thinks that it may be
at least worth an email to try to progress toward a more satisfactory
solution for his text to voice translation needs.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4>If you are unwilling to communicate my offer to this person,
then most V 2020 readers and I will conclude that:</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4>[1] The representations you have made about
the situation at issue are either completely or partially
false;</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4>and/or</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4>[2] <STRONG><FONT size=5>You do not
respect</FONT></STRONG> the intelligence or the judgment of your alleged friend
enough to trust him with a simple decision about seeking further, free
assistance with a problem which is important to <STRONG><FONT
size=5>him</FONT></STRONG>. Such an attitude is, in ordinary language,
called prejudice.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4><BR>Art Deco (Wayne A. Fox)<BR><A
href="mailto:deco@moscow.com">deco@moscow.com</A><BR></FONT></DIV>
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<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=donovanjarnold2005@yahoo.com
href="mailto:donovanjarnold2005@yahoo.com">Donovan Arnold</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A title=deco@moscow.com
href="mailto:deco@moscow.com">Art Deco</A> ; <A title=vision2020@moscow.com
href="mailto:vision2020@moscow.com">Vision 2020</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Friday, November 11, 2005 6:50
PM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [Vision2020] RE: HTML
Formatting and the Blind</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV>Wayne,</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Just because he is blind, does not mean he is an idiot. Do you honestly
think that he is unaware of any of the programs, facilities, or organizations
available for the blind? Do you think, that you can offer any information that
he does not already know or researched thoroughly himself? You think he got
into graduate school without the ability to do that kind of research? Do you
honestly think he did not go on-line, make phone calls, and try different
programs? Do you think he is not smart enough to check with local disability
organizations for help? </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Let me explain it to you this way. He is smarter than you, he has already
explored all of the suggestions you have made, and many more. He is not able
to find a program that reads italics, and HTML effectively and reliably with
current programs available for the blind. </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>You can either believe he is an idiot, or that he is telling the truth. I
really do not care. </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>I do not pretend or assert that I am an expert on being blind or computer
software. But I trust his word over your assumption that he is a complete
idiot that is not aware of HTML translation. and verbal speaking
programs, I bet he can even name some you cannot.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Take Care,</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Donovan J Arnold</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><BR><BR><B><I>Art Deco <deco@moscow.com></I></B> wrote:</DIV>
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<DIV><FONT size=4>Donovan,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4>Thank you for spectacularly illustrating the points I made
the post below:</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4>This earlier post from Nils Peterson covers the subject
nicely.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT
size=4>___________________________________________________</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4><FONT size=3>There are several local resources for help
understanding and learning to use<BR>tools that make computers generally,
and web and email in particular,<BR>accessible to blind and visually
impaired individuals. Each campus has a<BR>disability resource center, and
downtown Moscow is the non-profit<BR>organization Disability Action Center.
Any of these contact points can<BR>either answer your questions or direct
you to resources who can.</FONT><BR></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT
size=4>___________________________________________________</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4>Here is one link which, if you wish you be helpful to
blind friend:</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4><A
href="http://www.qwertystudios.com/sn/product.html">http://www.qwertystudios.com/sn/product.html</A></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4>Note the message:</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><!--StartFragment --> <FONT
face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size=-1>Hello! I'm Speaking
Notepad! I am useful and handy analog of Microsoft Notepad. But as you can
see, I can speak! <FONT color=#0000ff size=4><STRONG>I'll read your TXT,
DOC, <FONT color=#ff0000 size=5>HTML</FONT> and RTF documents, readme's,
notes, <FONT color=#ff0000 size=5>e-mails</FONT> and clever and interesting
thoughts aloud!</STRONG></FONT> With my help you'll solve a lot of your
problems at home or in the office. Just imagine, how it's easier to listen
to texts rather than read them. Give a rest to your eyes. I can also read
texts with different voices, speeds and pitches, read clipboard content,
read text into WAV or MP3 sound file and even read every word your are
typing. That means that while typing some text you may even not look at
screen at all and control your typing orally. I'm designed for people who
knows the value of fast and comfortable work and entertainment. I'm su! re,
we'll become friends.</FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4>The price for this software is $14.95.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4>Here is another link:</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4><A
href="http://www.audioutilities.com/text-to-voice/text-to-speech.htm">http://www.audioutilities.com/text-to-voice/text-to-speech.htm</A></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4>Note the message:</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><!--StartFragment --> Read Text in any application, including
<STRONG><FONT color=#0000ff size=4>Emails</FONT></STRONG>, <STRONG><FONT
color=#0000ff size=4>web pages</FONT></STRONG>, news articles, PDF, Word or
Excel Documents, etc. </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4>The price for this software is $24.95.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4>I do not pretend to be an expert but here is a link from
an organization who is:</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4><A
href="http://www.macular.org/lowvis/readers.html">http://www.macular.org/lowvis/readers.html</A></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4>They recommend:</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4>Connect Outloud </FONT><FONT size=4><A
href="http://www.freedomscientific.com/fs_products/software_connect.asp">http://www.freedomscientific.com/fs_products/software_connect.asp</A></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4>Read Please <A
href="http://www.readplease.com/">http://www.readplease.com/</A></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4>Instead of exhibiting yourself further, please help
your blind friend by referring him to the resources Nils Peterson gives
and the ones listed above. If your blind friend still cannot find a
text to voice program that reads HTML email satisfactorily, give him my
email address and I'll be glad to try to help him.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4>However, if you or he expect any complex program to work
perfectly, a reality check is recommended.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4><BR>Art Deco (Wayne A. Fox)<BR><A
href="mailto:deco@moscow.com">deco@moscow.com</A><BR></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4>----- Original Message ----- </FONT>
<DIV><FONT size=4>From: "Donovan Arnold" <</FONT><A
href="mailto:donovanjarnold2005@yahoo.com"><FONT
size=4>donovanjarnold2005@yahoo.com</FONT></A><FONT size=4>></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4>To: "Art Deco" <</FONT><A
href="mailto:deco@moscow.com"><FONT size=4>deco@moscow.com</FONT></A><FONT
size=4>>; "Vision 2020" <</FONT><A
href="mailto:vision2020@moscow.com"><FONT
size=4>vision2020@moscow.com</FONT></A><FONT size=4>></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4>Sent: Friday, November 11, 2005 2:15 PM</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4>Subject: Re: [Vision2020] RE: HTML Formatting and the
Blind</FONT></DIV></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4><BR></FONT></DIV><FONT size=4>> Wayne,<BR>> <BR>>
You will have to forgive me, I was unaware that you<BR>> were an expert
on the disabled and computer software. <BR>> <BR>> I want to thank you
for letting me know that this<BR>> graduate student, that is blind, is in
fact obviously<BR>> an idiot. That he was not smart enough to try
buying<BR>> or purchasing a program for converting HTML format.<BR>>
How did he ever get into graduate school? <BR>> <BR>> Either that or
there is still no program that converts<BR>> all HTML formats perfectly.
Clearly, this guy had his<BR>> wife drive him all the way up from
Lewiston and came<BR>> into our office to complain about the HTML
formatting,<BR>> all for nothing. Being a blind graduate student,
he<BR>> obviously would be oblivious of disability support<BR>>
services, CO-AD, the Disability Action Center, or<BR>> bothered to
research what computer technologies were<!
BR>> available for the blind. He is blind, so obviously, as<BR>>
Wayne implies, he is stupid and helpless, unable to<BR>> figure this out
on his own.<BR>> <BR>> But, why should I listen to a blind
intelligent<BR>> graduate student who gives lectures and
conferences,<BR>> and uses the programs on a daily basis when instead
I<BR>> can listen to Wayne Fox, expert on the blind and<BR>> computer
software capabilities.<BR>> <BR>> If the software box claims to
convert HTML format to<BR>> plain text format, clearly it does 100% of
the time,<BR>> regardless or font, color, graphic, or italics,<BR>>
because we all know that software works perfectly and<BR>> it is the
people that use them that are idiots. <BR>> <BR>> What Wayne fails to
realize is that not all HTML<BR>> formatting converts perfectly to plain
text so that a<BR>> program that reads the words out loud for the
blind<BR>> work well. It depends on what is in the HTML<BR>&g! t;
formatting, like if someone uses italics, it does not<BR>> work. I trust
the words of blind people over that of<BR>> Wayne Fox. And you will find
that most graduate<BR>> students that are blind have already
exhaustively<BR>> explored all resources for accessing written
text.<BR>> <BR>> Take Care,<BR>> <BR>> Donovan J Arnold <BR>>
<BR>> PS. Maybe you can tell him some other problems that<BR>> blind
people have and how to deal with it, since you<BR>> are such the expert,
Wayne.<BR>> <BR>> <BR>> <BR>> --- Art Deco <</FONT><A
href="mailto:deco@moscow.com"><FONT size=4>deco@moscow.com</FONT></A><FONT
size=4>> wrote:<BR>> <BR>>> Donovan,<BR>>> <BR>>> I
can only repeat what Rose recently said, but a<BR>>> little
differently. If you <BR>>> continue to make asinine assertions
about matters<BR>>> where ignorance is your <BR>>> chief
qualification, then what little credibility<BR>>> you have left will
be <BR>>> eviscerated.<BR>>> <BR>>> Most email processors
can be set to translate HTML<BR>>> emails into plaintext <BR>>>
before the reader even views them. The effect is<BR>>> that the
email appears as <BR>>> a plaintext document and can be processed by
most<BR>>> text to voice programs as <BR>>> such. If the
blind and visually disabled are having<BR>>> problems with HTML
<BR>>> email with their particular programs, they need to<BR>>>
switch to translators <BR>>> that work with them. Such programs
do exist and are<BR>>> widely available.<BR>>> <BR>>> For
example, the blind, contrary to your assertion,<BR>>> can surf the web
with <BR>>> several different popular browsers when
certain<BR>>> add-ins are used. Perhaps <BR>>> you don't
understand, but all websites are written<BR>>> in a l! anguage which
needs <BR>>> to be translated. Most primarily use HTML
and/or<BR>>> its many variants. Some <BR>>> are now
completely written in XML. Websites are not<BR>>> written in
plaintext.<BR>>> <BR>>> You may test the truth of this yourself
using<BR>>> Microsoft Internet Explorer <BR>>> for
example:<BR>>> <BR>>> 1. Go to any
website.<BR>>> 2. Place the cursor somewhere on a
webpage but<BR>>> not on a graphic.<BR>>> 3.
Right click.<BR>>> 4. From the menu that appears,
choose and click<BR>>> on View Source.<BR>>>
5. Contemplate what you see.<BR>>>
6. Tell us what you see and what you think it<BR>>>
means.<BR>>> <BR>>> You say:<BR>>> <BR>>> "I just
learned today..."<BR>>> <BR>>> Perhaps you need better and more
sources. Perhaps,<BR>>> Janesta and/or someone <BR>>> who
works with the disabled can provide more<BR>>> information about where
to <BR>>> acquire general text to voice programs that work<BR>>>
with HTML.<BR>>> <BR>>> Although many V 2020ers may have placed
you on their<BR>>> Bozo Filter, I haven't, <BR>>> because
occasionally you make some well thought out<BR>>> and cogent
observations. <BR>>> The number of these now is few and far
between. You<BR>>> appear to be guided in <BR>>>
discussions by high school debate tactics where the<BR>>> goal
is to win points <BR>>> based on some forensic scoring system, rather
than<BR>>> exploring an issue. This <BR>>> is a common
practice among those you are an<BR>>> apologist for. It is a
very <BR>>> common practice among the CCC apologists, for<BR>>>
example, Dale Courtney, <BR>>> Do! uglas Wilson, Thomas Garfield, Roy
Atwood. etc.<BR>>> <BR>>> If you want to be taken as a credible
voice, perhaps<BR>>> you should look before <BR>>> you
leap.<BR>>> <BR>>> I expect your response to this post will be
to<BR>>> ignore the facts presented <BR>>> and to spew more
irrelevant abuse or make up more<BR>>> information. You should
<BR>>> think carefully about this. If you do not
change<BR>>> this kind of behavior, you <BR>>> will likely not
be encouraged to help any more local<BR>>> political candidates.
<BR>>> Peg Hamlet has just learned a lesson in this
regard,<BR>>> just as Linda Pike did.<BR>>> <BR>>> It is
very unlikely this post will have any effect<BR>>> on your behavior
patterns <BR>>> because of the post's author. Perhaps you
ask<BR>>> someone you trust and who is <BR>>> a normal person to
be brutally frank with you on<BR>! >> this issue.<BR>>>
<BR>>> <BR>>> Art Deco (Wayne A. Fox)<BR>>> </FONT><A
href="mailto:deco@moscow.com"><FONT
size=4>deco@moscow.com</FONT></A><BR><FONT size=4>>> <BR>>>
<BR>>> ----- Original Message ----- <BR>>> From: "Donovan
Arnold"<BR>>> <</FONT><A
href="mailto:donovanjarnold2005@yahoo.com"><FONT
size=4>donovanjarnold2005@yahoo.com</FONT></A><FONT size=4>><BR>>>
To: "Saundra Lund" <</FONT><A href="mailto:sslund@adelphia.net"><FONT
size=4>sslund@adelphia.net</FONT></A><FONT size=4>>;
"'Chasuk'"<BR>>> <</FONT><A href="mailto:chasuk@gmail.com"><FONT
size=4>chasuk@gmail.com</FONT></A><FONT size=4>>; <BR>>> "'Vision
2020'" <</FONT><A href="mailto:vision2020@moscow.com"><FONT
size=4>vision2020@moscow.com</FONT></A><FONT size=4>><BR>>> Sent:
Friday, November 11, 2005 1:41 AM<BR>>> Subject: [Vision2020] RE: HTML
Formatting and the<BR>>> Blind<BR>>> <BR>>> <BR>>>
>I just learned today, that when a person writes in<BR>>> >
those large awkward fonts, even just italics,<BR>>>
programs<BR>>> > that read text for the blind and visually
impaired<BR>>> > cannot read them. So just another reason to
avoid<BR>>> > HTML, be inclusive.<BR>>> ><BR>>> >
--DJA<BR>>> ><BR>>> ><BR>>> ><BR>>> >
--- Saundra Lund <</FONT><A href="mailto:sslund@adelphia.net"><FONT
size=4>sslund@adelphia.net</FONT></A><FONT size=4>> wrote:<BR>>>
><BR>>> >> Chas wrote:<BR>>> >> "I, myself, hate
HTML formatting in e-mail. I<BR>>> don't<BR>>> >>
want enlarged fonts,<BR>>> >> images, color, or anything but
plain text. Am I<BR>>> a<BR>>> >> curmudgeon, or do
others<BR>>> >> agree with me?"<BR>>> >><BR>>>
>> Well, I don't hate HTML, I! just won't use it due<BR>>>
to<BR>>> >> security concerns :-)<BR>>> >> I
don't mind "reading" messages in HTML format<BR>>> from<BR>>>
>> people I know, but I<BR>>> >> won't take the risks for
just anyone ;-)<BR>>> >><BR>>> >> Also, I've
been around long enough to clearly<BR>>> >> remember the
complaints from<BR>>> >> people using dial-up -- HTML messages
are larger<BR>>> &<BR>>> >> therefore take longer
to<BR>>> >> receive, which I suppose was more of a
hardship<BR>>> back<BR>>> >> when most folks
paid<BR>>> >> for their online time based on use rather than
on<BR>>> >> unlimited connection time.<BR>>> >> I
still hear folks complaining about the time it<BR>>> >> takes to
download HTML<BR>>> >> messages, though.<BR>>>
>><BR>>> >>! ; But, I'll take the opportunity to
piggy-back on<BR>>> your<BR>>> >> poll :-)
After a<BR>>> >> series of unscientific studies, I've
determined<BR>>> that<BR>>> >> after posting to
V2020,<BR>>> >> I get absolutely inundated with virus
attempts,<BR>>> and<BR>>> >> I'm wondering if
anyone<BR>>> >> else experiences this?<BR>>>
>><BR>>> >> The good news (for me, anyway) is that
my<BR>>> computer<BR>>> >> is very secure, so
the<BR>>> >> attempts fail :-) However, it is
annoying, and<BR>>> it<BR>>> >> could be a major
problem<BR>>> >> for those who don't practice safe
computing. If<BR>>> >> others have experienced<BR>>>
>> this, I wonder if that might contribute to the<BR>>>
lack<BR>>> >> of participation on<BR>>> >> V2020 by
more co! mmunity members.<BR>>> >><BR>>>
>><BR>>> >> Saundra Lund<BR>>> >> Moscow,
ID<BR>>> >><BR>>> >> The only thing necessary for
the triumph of evil<BR>>> is<BR>>> >> for good people to
do<BR>>> >> nothing.<BR>>> >> Edmund
Burke<BR>>> >><BR>>> >> ***** Original material
contained herein is<BR>>> >> Copyright 2005, Saundra
Lund.<BR>>> >> Do not copy, forward, excerpt, or
reproduce<BR>>> outside<BR>>> >> the Vision 2020
forum<BR>>> >> without the express written permission of
the<BR>>> >> author.*****<BR>>> >><BR>>>
>><BR>>> >><BR>>> <BR>>=== message truncated
===<BR>> <BR>> <BR>> <BR>> <BR>>
__________________________________ <BR>> Yahoo! Mail - PC Magazine
Editors' Choice 2005 <BR>> </FONT><A href="http://mail.yahoo.com/"
!><FONT size=4>http://mail.yahoo.com</FONT></A><BR><FONT size=4>>
<BR>>
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