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<DIV><FONT size=4>Michael, Please answer the last part of [Q2]. W.</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=metzler@moscow.com href="mailto:metzler@moscow.com">Michael</A>
</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A title=vision2020@moscow.com
href="mailto:vision2020@moscow.com">vision2020@moscow.com</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Friday, November 04, 2005 1:59
PM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> [Vision2020] Wayne, God,
Plantinga, Wilson, and Evil</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV class=Section1>
<P class=MsoNormal><st1:place w:st="on"><st1:City w:st="on"><FONT
face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN lang=EN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt">Wayne</SPAN></FONT></st1:City></st1:place><SPAN
lang=EN> Writes:<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN lang=EN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt">[1] Just because Plantinga asserts
something about trends in philosophical/theological discussions, does not mean
you should ovinely accept it and bandy it about with evidence. How does
he know this? Did he make a valid, reliable, and methodologically
correct survey of all the philosophical and theological articles from all the
different publications were such articles are likely to occur? If
not, it would be foolish to believe this knowledge claim based purely on his
personal experience. <o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN lang=EN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN lang=EN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt">And <st1:place w:st="on"><st1:City
w:st="on">Wayne</st1:City></st1:place> Also Wrote
Elsewhere:<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt">In my message today, I noted that you blindly accepted
Plantinga's word and attempted to use his apparently unresearched assertions
on a matter clearly calling for data to make your point. If this is your
normal mode of operation, you are best advised to avoid those selling stock in
silver mines, aluminum siding salespersons, and <st1:PersonName
w:st="on">Douglas</st1:PersonName> Wilson.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt">Me:<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt">I gave evidence to believe that most philosophers have
given up on the deductive version of the Problem of Evil argument;
Plantinga doesnt need to make surveys of philosophical articles in order to
make a statement about the current world of philosophy; he is part of the very
life blood of analytic philosophy. Further, this is an academic Oxford
University Press publication, heavily scrutinized by philosophers (and even
laymen) around the world, and Plantinga, as I noted, provided half a page of
footnotes that were attached directly to this very claim. Id be happy to see
evidence that would disprove Plantingas position. But Im not inclined
to think that I just consulted the local Witch Doctor on the matter.
<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN lang=EN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><st1:place w:st="on"><st1:City w:st="on"><FONT
face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN lang=EN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt">Wayne</SPAN></FONT></st1:City></st1:place><SPAN
lang=EN> Wrote:<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN lang=EN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt">[2] The cite you quote from
Stanford.edu does not support your claims but are counter to them in two ways:
<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN lang=EN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"> [A] The
cite appears to use the word "induction" in the sense in which I
previously described, not in the unorthodox way you use in the cite
below.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN lang=EN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"> [B] The
point of the cite is that some of the premises used in various
statements of the problem of evil rest upon observations. To
the extent they rest upon observations, they are not absolutely
true. That is not in dispute. The theory of gravity also
rests on observations as does the statement "Evil exists."
Though either statement may not be absolutely true, the probability of
the statement that evil exists is about the same as that of the statement
when an apple falls from a tree, barring a strong wind, it will fall
earthward.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN lang=EN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN lang=EN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt">Me:<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN lang=EN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt">Heres the quote again: But if this is right, then it
is surely best to get that crucial inductive step out into the open, and thus
to formulate the argument from evil not as a deductive argument for the very
strong claim that it is logically impossible for both God and evil to exist,
(or for God and certain types, or instances, of evil to exist), but as an
evidential (inductive/probabilistic) argument for the more modest claim that
there are evils that actually exist in the world that make it unlikely that
God exists. To paraphrase: It is surely best to formulate the argument not as
a deductive argument but as an inductive, probabilistic argument. And
this is precisely what my original claim was.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN lang=EN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><st1:place w:st="on"><st1:City w:st="on"><FONT
face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN lang=EN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt">Wayne</SPAN></FONT></st1:City></st1:place><SPAN
lang=EN> Wrote:<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN lang=EN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt">You are using the word "induction" in a quite
mysterious, unorthodox way. In ordinary language induction the word
is used by logicians, scientists, lay people, etc
thusly: Observations are made, hypotheses are constructed, expected
observations are deduced from the hypotheses, tests are made to determine if
the expected observations occur. How is the induction you speak of
different? Is there some mysterious element that is missing from the
above? <o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN lang=EN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN lang=EN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt">Me:<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN lang=EN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt">Induction is the process of weighing evidence, where
as deduction is syllogistic. The differences between the two that I laid
out is, as far as I can tell, common orthodoxy in the Universities. I
see rain clouds coming and so I believe it will rain. Then I walk into
my living room and see the weather channel which tells me it will not
rain. Now my original conclusion is weakened, but I still think it will
rain. Then I see the sun coming out and the rain clouds moving in a
different direction. This third piece of evidence now makes my original
conclusion very weak and I no longer think it will rain. Plantinga calls me up
and tells me Doug Wilson has told God to make it rain; now I know with
certainty that it will rain. This is pretty basic cognitive stuff, and
any higher level hypothesis formation, deductions, confirmation theories, and
the like, are going to be built out of this basic cognitive behavior.
<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN lang=EN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><st1:place w:st="on"><st1:City w:st="on"><FONT
face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN lang=EN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt">Wayne</SPAN></FONT></st1:City></st1:place><SPAN
lang=EN> Writes:<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN lang=EN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt">Slight change of subject: Two questions (one is
multi-part) for you:<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN lang=EN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt">[Q1] In practice when <st1:place
w:st="on"><st1:PersonName w:st="on"><st1:PlaceName
w:st="on">Christ</st1:PlaceName> <st1:PlaceType
w:st="on">Church</st1:PlaceType></st1:PersonName></st1:place> pundits (and
other Christian Apologists/Advocates) make knowledge claims about their
alleged god, they support these claims with quotations from the bible.
What words in the bible assert that your alleged god is omnipotent and
omnibenevolent?<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN lang=EN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN lang=EN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt">Me:<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN lang=EN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt">This is a surprising question, and so Im not sure how
to answer it. But here is a first attempt:<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN lang=EN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN lang=EN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt">All Good:<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN lang=EN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt">What was from the beginning, what we have heard, what
we have seen with our eyes, what we beheld and our hands handled, concerning
the Word of Lifeand the life was manifested, and we have seen and bear
witness and proclaim to you the eternal life, which was with the Father and
was manifested to uswhat we have seen and heard we proclaim to you also, that
you also may have fellowship with us; and indeed our fellowship is with the
Father, and with His Son Jesus Christ. And these things we write so that
our joy may be made complete. And this is the message we have heard from
Him and announce to you, that God is light, and in Him there is no darkness at
all. If we say that we have fellowship with Him and yet walk in the
darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth. 1 John
1:1-5<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN lang=EN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN lang=EN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt">All Powerful:<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN lang=EN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt">And what is the surpassing greatness of His power
toward us who believe. These are in accordance with the working of the
strength of His might, which He brought about in Christ, when He raised Him
from the dead, and seated Him at His right hand in the heavenly places, far
above all rule and authority and power and dominion, and every name that is
named, not only in this age, but also in the one to come. And He put all
things in subjection under His feet, and gave Him as head over all things to
the church, which is His body the fullness of Him who fills all in all. Eph.
1:19-23<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN lang=EN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN lang=EN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt">For by Him all things were created, both in the
heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or
rulers or authorities. All things have been created by Him and for Him.
And He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together.
<st1:country-region w:st="on"><st1:place
w:st="on">Col.</st1:place></st1:country-region>
1:16-17<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN lang=EN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><st1:place w:st="on"><st1:City w:st="on"><FONT
face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN lang=EN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt">Wayne</SPAN></FONT></st1:City></st1:place><SPAN
lang=EN> Wrote:<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN lang=EN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt">[Q2] Suppose you were presented with
a statement of the problem of evil whose premises were as highly probable as
any premises based on observation could be. Suppose further, that the
arguments in this statement of the problem of evil were all demonstratively
valid.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN lang=EN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt">Would you then admit that the assertion of the
existence of an omnipotent, omnibenevolent being leads to a
contradiction, and thus any alleged instantiation of same is logically
improbable/impossible? In other words would you accept the results of
true premises/valid arguments which demonstrated the
improbability/impossibility of an omnipotent, omnibenevolent
being?<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN lang=EN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN lang=EN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt">Me: No. I would come to the belief that the problem of
evil is a good argument for the non-existence of God. I might even
believe that there is a likely-hood that this good argument could end up
making my own belief in the existence of God epistemically weak, when
considered as a part of my total body of evidence. Of course, there is no way
to be sure of this second possibility since my total body of evidence is
massive and changing from day to day.
<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN lang=EN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN lang=EN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt">How do I correct the quote marks? I cant figure
out what problem you are referring to.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN lang=EN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN lang=EN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt">Thanks<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN lang=EN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt">Michael Metzler<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<P>
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