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<p class=MsoNormal><st1:place w:st="on"><st1:City w:st="on"><font size=3
face="Times New Roman"><span lang=EN style='font-size:12.0pt'>Wayne</span></font></st1:City></st1:place><span
lang=EN> Writes:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span lang=EN
style='font-size:12.0pt'>[1] Just because Plantinga asserts
something about trends in philosophical/theological discussions, does not mean
you should ovinely accept it and bandy it about with evidence. How does
he know this? Did he make a valid, reliable, and methodologically correct
survey of all the philosophical and theological articles from all the different
publications were such articles are likely to occur? If not, it
would be foolish to believe this knowledge claim based purely on his personal
experience. <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span lang=EN
style='font-size:12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span lang=EN
style='font-size:12.0pt'>And <st1:place w:st="on"><st1:City w:st="on">Wayne</st1:City></st1:place>
Also Wrote Elsewhere:<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>In my message today, I noted that you blindly accepted Plantinga's word
and attempted to use his apparently unresearched assertions on a matter clearly
calling for data to make your point. If this is your normal mode of
operation, you are best advised to avoid those selling stock in silver mines,
aluminum siding salespersons, and <st1:PersonName w:st="on">Douglas</st1:PersonName>
Wilson.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>Me:<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>I gave evidence to believe that most philosophers have given up on the
deductive version of the Problem of Evil argument; Plantinga
doesn’t need to make ‘surveys’ of philosophical articles in
order to make a statement about the current world of philosophy; he is part of
the very life blood of analytic philosophy. Further, this is an academic Oxford
University Press publication, heavily scrutinized by philosophers (and even
laymen) around the world, and Plantinga, as I noted, provided half a page of
footnotes that were attached directly to this very claim. I’d be happy to
see evidence that would disprove Plantinga’s position. But
I’m not inclined to think that I just consulted the local Witch Doctor on
the matter. <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span lang=EN
style='font-size:12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><st1:place w:st="on"><st1:City w:st="on"><font size=3
face="Times New Roman"><span lang=EN style='font-size:12.0pt'>Wayne</span></font></st1:City></st1:place><span
lang=EN> Wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span lang=EN
style='font-size:12.0pt'>[2] The cite you quote from
Stanford.edu does not support your claims but are counter to them in two ways: <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span lang=EN
style='font-size:12.0pt'> [A] The
cite appears to use the word "induction" in the sense in
which I previously described, not in the unorthodox way you use in the cite
below.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span lang=EN
style='font-size:12.0pt'> [B] The
point of the cite is that some of the premises used in various
statements of the problem of evil rest upon observations. To
the extent they rest upon observations, they are not absolutely
true. That is not in dispute. The theory of gravity also rests
on observations as does the statement "Evil exists."
Though either statement may not be absolutely true, the probability of the
statement that evil exists is about the same as that of the statement when
an apple falls from a tree, barring a strong wind, it will fall
earthward.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span lang=EN
style='font-size:12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span lang=EN
style='font-size:12.0pt'>Me:<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span lang=EN
style='font-size:12.0pt'>Here’s the quote again: “But if this is
right, then it is surely best to get that crucial inductive step out into the
open, and thus to formulate the argument from evil not as a deductive argument
for the very strong claim that it is logically impossible for both God and evil
to exist, (or for God and certain types, or instances, of evil to exist), but
as an evidential (inductive/probabilistic) argument for the more modest claim
that there are evils that actually exist in the world that make it unlikely
that God exists.” To paraphrase: It is surely best to formulate the
argument not as a deductive argument but as an inductive, probabilistic
argument. And this is precisely what my original claim was.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span lang=EN
style='font-size:12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><st1:place w:st="on"><st1:City w:st="on"><font size=3
face="Times New Roman"><span lang=EN style='font-size:12.0pt'>Wayne</span></font></st1:City></st1:place><span
lang=EN> Wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span lang=EN
style='font-size:12.0pt'>You are using the word "induction" in a
quite mysterious, unorthodox way. In ordinary language induction the
word is used by logicians, scientists, lay people, etc
thusly: Observations are made, hypotheses are constructed, expected
observations are deduced from the hypotheses, tests are made to determine if
the expected observations occur. How is the induction you speak of different?
Is there some mysterious element that is missing from the above? <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span lang=EN
style='font-size:12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span lang=EN
style='font-size:12.0pt'>Me:<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span lang=EN
style='font-size:12.0pt'>Induction is the process of weighing evidence, where
as deduction is syllogistic. The differences between the two that I laid
out is, as far as I can tell, common orthodoxy in the Universities. I see
rain clouds coming and so I believe “it will rain.” Then I
walk into my living room and see the weather channel which tells me it will not
rain. Now my original conclusion is weakened, but I still think it will
rain. Then I see the sun coming out and the rain clouds moving in a
different direction. This third piece of evidence now makes my original
conclusion very weak and I no longer think it will rain. Plantinga calls me up
and tells me Doug Wilson has told God to make it rain; now I know with
certainty that it will rain. This is pretty basic cognitive stuff, and
any higher level hypothesis formation, deductions, confirmation theories, and
the like, are going to be built out of this basic cognitive behavior. <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span lang=EN
style='font-size:12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><st1:place w:st="on"><st1:City w:st="on"><font size=3
face="Times New Roman"><span lang=EN style='font-size:12.0pt'>Wayne</span></font></st1:City></st1:place><span
lang=EN> Writes:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span lang=EN
style='font-size:12.0pt'>Slight change of subject: Two questions (one is
multi-part) for you:<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span lang=EN
style='font-size:12.0pt'>[Q1] In practice when <st1:place
w:st="on"><st1:PersonName w:st="on"><st1:PlaceName w:st="on">Christ</st1:PlaceName>
<st1:PlaceType w:st="on">Church</st1:PlaceType></st1:PersonName></st1:place> pundits (and
other Christian Apologists/Advocates) make knowledge claims about their alleged
god, they support these claims with quotations from the bible. What words
in the bible assert that your alleged god is omnipotent and omnibenevolent?<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span lang=EN
style='font-size:12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span lang=EN
style='font-size:12.0pt'>Me:<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span lang=EN
style='font-size:12.0pt'>This is a surprising question, and so I’m not
sure how to answer it. But here is a first attempt:<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span lang=EN
style='font-size:12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span lang=EN
style='font-size:12.0pt'>All Good:<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span lang=EN
style='font-size:12.0pt'>What was from the beginning, what we have heard, what
we have seen with our eyes, what we beheld and our hands handled, concerning
the Word of Life—and the life was manifested, and we have seen and bear
witness and proclaim to you the eternal life, which was with the Father and was
manifested to us—what we have seen and heard we proclaim to you also,
that you also may have fellowship with us; and indeed our fellowship is with
the Father, and with His Son Jesus Christ. And these things we write so
that our joy may be made complete. And this is the message we have heard
from Him and announce to you, that God is light, and in Him there is no
darkness at all. If we say that we have fellowship with Him and yet walk
in the darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth. 1 John 1:1-5<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span lang=EN
style='font-size:12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span lang=EN
style='font-size:12.0pt'>All Powerful:<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span lang=EN
style='font-size:12.0pt'>And what is the surpassing greatness of His power
toward us who believe. These are in accordance with the working of the strength
of His might, which He brought about in Christ, when He raised Him from the
dead, and seated Him at His right hand in the heavenly places, far above all
rule and authority and power and dominion, and every name that is named, not
only in this age, but also in the one to come. And He put all things in
subjection under His feet, and gave Him as head over all things to the church,
which is His body the fullness of Him who fills all in all. Eph. 1:19-23<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span lang=EN
style='font-size:12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span lang=EN
style='font-size:12.0pt'>For by Him all things were created, both in the
heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or
rulers or authorities. All things have been created by Him and for Him.
And He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together. <st1:country-region
w:st="on"><st1:place w:st="on">Col.</st1:place></st1:country-region> 1:16-17<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span lang=EN
style='font-size:12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><st1:place w:st="on"><st1:City w:st="on"><font size=3
face="Times New Roman"><span lang=EN style='font-size:12.0pt'>Wayne</span></font></st1:City></st1:place><span
lang=EN> Wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span lang=EN
style='font-size:12.0pt'>[Q2] Suppose you were presented with
a statement of the problem of evil whose premises were as highly probable as
any premises based on observation could be. Suppose further, that the
arguments in this statement of the problem of evil were all demonstratively
valid.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span lang=EN
style='font-size:12.0pt'>Would you then admit that the assertion of the
existence of an omnipotent, omnibenevolent being leads to a contradiction,
and thus any alleged instantiation of same is logically
improbable/impossible? In other words would you accept the results of
true premises/valid arguments which demonstrated the
improbability/impossibility of an omnipotent, omnibenevolent being?<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span lang=EN
style='font-size:12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span lang=EN
style='font-size:12.0pt'>Me: No. I would come to the belief that the problem of
evil is a good argument for the non-existence of God. I might even
believe that there is a likely-hood that this good argument could end up making
my own belief in the existence of God epistemically weak, when considered as a
part of my total body of evidence. Of course, there is no way to be sure of
this second possibility since my total body of evidence is massive and changing
from day to day. <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span lang=EN
style='font-size:12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span lang=EN
style='font-size:12.0pt'>How do I correct the quote marks? I can’t
figure out what problem you are referring to.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span lang=EN
style='font-size:12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span lang=EN
style='font-size:12.0pt'>Thanks<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span lang=EN
style='font-size:12.0pt'>Michael Metzler<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
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