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<DIV><FONT size=4>Michael,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4>At this time I am not entering the main issue of this thread
in which Joseph Campbell raised questions about the validity of the Christian
Scriptures as a moral authority.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4>However, you make the claim that:</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="Courier New" size=2><FONT face=Verdana size=3>"First, the 'not
so bad' seems to be a misquote from the Wilson/Wilkins position. I think
their</FONT> <FONT face=Verdana size=3>position would be better stated as 'not
so bad as we have been told by those who won the war'."</FONT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4>Such a characterization of Wilson's views is not only
fraudulently inaccurate, but deceptively oversimplified. Here are just two
quotes of many from <EM>Southern Slavery: As It Was</EM> that are
counter-examples to your above claim:</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal
style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; mso-layout-grid-align: none"><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: BookAntiqua; mso-bidi-font-family: BookAntiqua"><FONT
face=Verdana>"...slavery was a harmonious institution, one characterized by
racial affection and patriarchal benevolence."<o:p></o:p></FONT></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal
style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; mso-layout-grid-align: none"><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: BookAntiqua; mso-bidi-font-family: BookAntiqua"><o:p><FONT
face=Verdana> </FONT></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal
style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; mso-layout-grid-align: none"><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: BookAntiqua; mso-bidi-font-family: BookAntiqua"><FONT
face=Verdana>"...slave life was to them a life of plenty, of simple
pleasures."</FONT></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal
style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; mso-layout-grid-align: none"><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: BookAntiqua; mso-bidi-font-family: BookAntiqua"><FONT
face=Verdana></FONT></SPAN> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal
style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; mso-layout-grid-align: none"><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: BookAntiqua; mso-bidi-font-family: BookAntiqua"><FONT
face=Verdana size=4>Regardless of the truth or falsity of these
statements, the Christ Church/Wilson position embodying
the statements given the ordinary usage of the words therein,
can not be honestly by any stretch of the imagination described as:
</FONT></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal
style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; mso-layout-grid-align: none"><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: BookAntiqua; mso-bidi-font-family: BookAntiqua"><FONT
face=Verdana size=4></FONT></SPAN> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal
style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; mso-layout-grid-align: none"><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: BookAntiqua; mso-bidi-font-family: BookAntiqua"><FONT
face=Verdana>"...not so bad as we have been told by those who won the
war"</FONT></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal
style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; mso-layout-grid-align: none"><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: BookAntiqua; mso-bidi-font-family: BookAntiqua"><FONT
face=Verdana size=4></FONT></SPAN> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal
style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; mso-layout-grid-align: none"><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: BookAntiqua; mso-bidi-font-family: BookAntiqua"><FONT
face=Verdana size=4>I am afraid that in making such a statement you have
irrevocably destroyed your thinly disguised pose as <FONT color=#0000ff>a humble
person on an open-minded spiritual quest</FONT> for all who have followed this
thread. You have now revealed to those who did not know it before
that you are <FONT color=#ff0000>a committed Christ Church
Apologist/Advocate</FONT>.</FONT></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal
style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; mso-layout-grid-align: none"><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: BookAntiqua; mso-bidi-font-family: BookAntiqua"><FONT
face=Verdana size=4></FONT></SPAN> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal
style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; mso-layout-grid-align: none"><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: BookAntiqua; mso-bidi-font-family: BookAntiqua"><FONT
face=Verdana size=4><STRONG><FONT size=5>However, this does not mean the
dialogues with you on Vision 2020 cannot continue to explore various
subjects.</FONT></STRONG> </FONT></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal
style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; mso-layout-grid-align: none"><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: BookAntiqua; mso-bidi-font-family: BookAntiqua"><FONT
face=Verdana size=4></FONT></SPAN> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal
style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; mso-layout-grid-align: none"><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: BookAntiqua; mso-bidi-font-family: BookAntiqua"><FONT
face=Verdana size=4>But henceforth whenever you tell a lie, do not be surprised
if you are called on it, and do be surprised, depending on the size/nature of
the lie, that apt remarks about your integrity will be made. [Your pose is
also a form of dishonesty.] Further, do not be surprised that many will
consider that <FONT color=#ff0000>you are not a sincere Christian</FONT> if you
continue to lie and to pose as something you are not. </FONT></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal
style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; mso-layout-grid-align: none"><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: BookAntiqua; mso-bidi-font-family: BookAntiqua"><FONT
face=Verdana size=4></FONT></SPAN> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal
style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; mso-layout-grid-align: none"><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: BookAntiqua; mso-bidi-font-family: BookAntiqua"><FONT
face=Verdana size=4>Hence, I think it best if you drop your pose from now
on. No one will now be fooled and it adds unnecessary words
and distractive baggage to your defense of Christ Church
dogma.</FONT></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal
style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; mso-layout-grid-align: none"><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: BookAntiqua; mso-bidi-font-family: BookAntiqua"><FONT
face=Verdana size=4></FONT></SPAN> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal
style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; mso-layout-grid-align: none"><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: BookAntiqua; mso-bidi-font-family: BookAntiqua"><FONT
face=Verdana size=4>I will answer your other missive on induction when time
permits.</FONT></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal
style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; mso-layout-grid-align: none"><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: BookAntiqua; mso-bidi-font-family: BookAntiqua"><FONT
face=Verdana size=4><BR>Art Deco (Wayne A. Fox)<BR><A
href="mailto:deco@moscow.com">deco@moscow.com</A><BR></FONT></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal
style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; mso-layout-grid-align: none"><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: BookAntiqua; mso-bidi-font-family: BookAntiqua"><o:p></o:p></SPAN> </P></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=metzler@moscow.com href="mailto:metzler@moscow.com">Michael</A>
</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A title=vision2020@moscow.com
href="mailto:vision2020@moscow.com">vision2020@moscow.com</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Thursday, November 03, 2005 12:36
PM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> [Vision2020] Slavery & Keely
answers doug</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV class=Section1>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Courier New" size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'">Gee Joe, you are really
putting me “a bit on the spot” here! :-)<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Courier New" size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Courier New" size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'">You
Write:<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Courier New" size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'">“I asked you a few
questions. Let me rephrase two of them:<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Courier New" size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'">Do you, Michael, think
that (a) the bible “says” that slavery is sometimes justifiable, and (b) that
slavery is, in fact, sometimes justifiable?”<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Courier New" size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Courier New" size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'">Me:<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Courier New" size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'">I wish I could answer
these questions with either a ‘yes’ or ‘no,’ but I’m not comfortable with how
they are framed. I also think the issues might be more complex than these
answers assume. Scripturally, slavery of any form is a result of the fall of
man, and the eradication of slavery of all forms is the goal of the history of
redemption. But the kingdom of heaven is not like a nuclear bomb, it is more
like a mustard seed or like leaven. The Lord eradicated all violence
(and I assume slavery) with the flood and recreated a new world with Noah, but
the ultimate recreation of the world then falls to Abram, and then Joseph’s
Egypt, and then Israel wandering in the desert. First, slavery is almost
fully eradicated from <st1:country-region
w:st="on">Israel</st1:country-region>, since they “were once slaves in
<st1:place w:st="on"><st1:country-region
w:st="on">Israel</st1:country-region></st1:place>, but have been set
free.” Consider too that God had His special people enslaved in
<st1:country-region w:st="on"><st1:place
w:st="on">Egypt</st1:place></st1:country-region> for the ultimate freedom of
the entire world. And this redemptive history is the context in which we
see ‘law’ or ‘moral obligations’ from God. The law of God must be seen
as part of the way God was saving the world; law is not some abstract,
timeless code in the sky. It is the Lord disciplining His children and
revealing his holiness; and Paul tells us that His children have grown to a
new maturity in Jesus, which had profound effects in how the ‘law’ was to
function. <o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Courier New" size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Courier New" size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'">And I think the issue is
even far more complicated than just this; there really isn’t such a thing as
two tight categories of Slavery and Non-Slavery. There is the slavery of
the ancient world which treated men as worse than beasts, which might be
similar to the slavery of African trading (although if a man is at least a
commodity, it might fair a little better for him). Then there are more
mild forms of slavery, such as what you might still find in
<st1:country-region w:st="on">Israel</st1:country-region> after she was freed
from <st1:place w:st="on"><st1:country-region
w:st="on">Egypt</st1:country-region></st1:place>; this might be somewhat
voluntary or temporary, and include the other general protections of
law. Then there is the sort of slavery that is financial; debt and
poverty can easily enslave men. But this was to be eradicated in <st1:place
w:st="on"><st1:country-region
w:st="on">Israel</st1:country-region></st1:place> through brotherly giving,
and other provisions from which we have received our bankruptcy law. The
mild forms of slavery were permitted in much the same way as polygamy or
divorce was permitted. Polygamy was finally entirely unacceptable for
the new people of God after the Incarnation. <o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Courier New" size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Courier New" size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'">Regarding the slavery of
poverty and debt, we can see clearly how complex the issues still are in our
own time; but when the knowledge of the Lord covers the entire earth, we would
expect this to be almost entirely done away with through love.
<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Courier New" size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Courier New" size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'">Next in line you have
class status, which is certainly a minor form of slavery: Jew and Gentile, Man
and Woman, Absolute Ruler and Subject. And you have the absence of “liberty of
conscience” that the world hardly knew of until the separation of church and
state that John Calvin fought for, and grew in Calvinist countries.
<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Courier New" size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Courier New" size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'">So I don’t think the issue
is as simple as the above questions seem to
imply.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Courier New" size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Courier New" size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'">You
Wrote:<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Courier New" size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'">“To even suggest that
slavery is anything other than always morally wrong presents a real moral
problem, in my humble opinion.”<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Courier New" size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Courier New" size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'">Me:<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Courier New" size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'">Well, I think my comments
above might address some of your concern here; but if you could fill out the
moral dilemma a bit more, I might be in a better position to engage with it.
<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Courier New" size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Courier New" size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'">You
Wrote:<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Courier New" size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'">“What I really have a
problem with is how a young, intelligent man like yourself could think that
“homosexuality” is morally worse than someone even suggesting that slavery in
America was “not so bad" in a town with at least one African-American
resident?”<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Courier New" size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Courier New" size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'">Me:<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Courier New" size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'">There seem to be a couple
problems with this way of setting up the problem. First, the “not so
bad” seems to be a misquote from the Wilson/Wilkins position. I think their
position would be better stated as “not so bad as we have been told by those
who won the war.” But perhaps you could offer a citation to
clarify.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Courier New" size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Courier New" size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'">Second, I don’t think your
point is best served by the way you set this up. The problem you have is
with me merely “thinking” something about homosexuality. Further, all
I’m supposedly thinking is that homosexuality is worse than “someone even
suggesting” a point of view that you find problematic. The way you set it up
forces me to agree. I think homosexuality is worse than “someone
suggesting” a bad point of view. I don’t think people should be condemned or
rebuked for “suggesting” a point of view shared by many historical scholars.
This looks even more tame when added to the fact that it is merely my
“thinking” this is true that is your problem. But I suspect you have a
more serious critique in mind, so please do clarify.
<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Courier New" size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Courier New" size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'">You
Wrote:<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Courier New" size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'">‘Is being nice, and
courteous, and considerate of the feelings of others the same thing as
“political correctness”? Or is it just one attempt to exhibit a life of love
and compassion?”<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Courier New" size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Courier New" size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'">Me:<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Courier New" size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'">Actually I think
‘political correctness’ is somewhat value neutral; when ‘political
correctness’ becomes a problem, the problem would be proportional to the level
of statism in a society. There will always be norms and values in a
given society; the question is how much pain results from the hand of the
political power or the masses toward an individual dissenting from these norms
and values. Whether Sally is right or wrong, or whether the standards of
‘correctness’ in Sally’s society are right or wrong, it will not be enjoyable
for Sally to challenge these standards. <o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Courier New" size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Courier New" size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'">Thanks!<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Courier New" size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'">Michael
Metzler<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<P>
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