<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><HTML><FONT SIZE=2 PTSIZE=10 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0">Chas et. al.<BR>
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Ted wrote:<BR>
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> I do not cease to be amazed by the hubris of human beings who imagine they can fathom > the intentions and actions of a being (God) whom they assert created the entire universe,<BR>
> an act which implies a God-mind and capabilities beyond anything the human mind can > conceive.<BR>
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Chas wrote:<BR>
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This is the sentiment which I have never understood, particularly the<BR>
"hubris" part. It doesn't require hubris to speculate on the<BR>
intention or actions of a being whose existence we are only surmising<BR>
in the first place.<BR>
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Ted responds: <BR>
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I did not say it "required" hubris, nor did I say that everyone who speculates in this way is exhibiting "hubris." <BR>
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I do assert quite emphatically that as an empirical fact many who do believe they fathom the exact intentions of what they believe to be an all knowing, all powerful creator God, do exhibit hubris in this kind of thinking, which is expressed sometimes in actions against other human beings which are cruel, i. e. sowing death and destruction by flying airplanes into buildings believing a place in paradise, guaranteed by God, awaits them.<BR>
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You wrote:<BR>
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To put it another way, discarding the analogy: if I knew that God<BR>
existed (some primary, _deliberate_ causative agent), then it would<BR>
possibly be hubris to try to divine His intentions or actions. <BR>
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My spider "analogy" was not meant to be a precise philosophical argument to support what I stated regarding the "hubris" in question. A spider may or may not embody aspects of "Mind," depending on how you define this very difficult to understand philosophical problem, but I did not intend an exact parallel between a hubris filled spider thinking it comprehends human intentions regarding, for example, where the spider may or may not build its beautiful web, with a hubris filled human being thinking it knows just what buildings to fly an airplane into, based on God's intentions.<BR>
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What I stated is a matter of empirical psychological fact. You of course are free to not understand the "hubris" which I reference. Indeed, I don't understand it fully. Perhaps there is some truth to the theory that human brains are hard wired in some way that results in the intense unchallengeable beliefs many human beings have regarding spiritual matters, beliefs which I think it is fair to say mix with "common" emotions of pride and arrogance, to motivate some of their actions.<BR>
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Consider the comments of Lt. General William Boykin:<BR>
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"I knew my God was bigger than his. I knew that my God was a real God and his was an idol."<BR>
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</FONT><FONT COLOR="#0000ff" BACK="#ffffff" style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=2 PTSIZE=10 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0"><A HREF="http://www.commondreams.org/headlines03/1016-01.htm">http://www.commondreams.org/headlines03/1016-01.htm</A><BR>
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I think this statement below from you is an overstatement. It is possible that there is a primary deliberate causative agent (God), that is offering evidence of some sort of its existence to a human being, so I wonder about your absolute certainty this is not the case? How can you prove this statement?<BR>
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"I definitely DO NOT know, nor<BR>
does any man, whether any primary, _deliberate_ causative agent (God)<BR>
exists, ..."<BR>
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Is this possibly "hubris" on your part?<BR>
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No need to reply. I am just offering this possibility for contemplation.<BR>
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Chas wrote:<BR>
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However, I definitely DO NOT know, nor<BR>
does any man, whether any primary, _deliberate_ causative agent (God)<BR>
exists, so even if this need to satisfy my curiosity could be called<BR>
hubris, it couldn't be called hubris here.<BR>
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Ted Moffett<BR>
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