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All:<BR>
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Michael Metzler wrote:<BR>
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</FONT><FONT COLOR="#000080" BACK="#ffffff" style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=2 PTSIZE=10 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0">As someone like Alvin Plantinga would point out however, another option would be to see belief in God as properly basic: something immediately produced ‘because’ of the ‘evidence’ presented to the senses of the complexity and beauty of the world, but not discursively ‘based upon’ propositional evidence derived from such experience. I’m sure, Bob, that you don’t mean that there is no ‘logical connection’ at all between the idea of a Creator God and the ‘design’ features of the world….<BR>
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I don't know if you are suggesting you believe in this statement above, or are merely presenting Plantinga's point of view to illuminate your discussion in some way. <BR>
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But to assert that belief in God is "something immediately produced ‘because’ of the ‘evidence’ presented to the senses of the complexity and beauty of the world" is quite simply a factually incorrect statement, if applied to all human beings, at least if belief in a monotheistic God who created the universe is the sort of God referred to. <BR>
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I find it odd in the extreme that some discussions of Intelligent Design and Creationism appear to ignore the astonishing variety of different religious/spiritual views regarding creation of the Earth or the universe or the human species. There are easily over a billion human beings on Earth who do not experience their religion or spirituality as involving this sort of belief in God (monotheistic God), produced by the complexity and beauty of the world. I think a very good case can be made that belief in one powerful God who created the universe is a learned idea, and those who are taught in childhood and youth that there are a variety of Gods and/or Goddesses, or other forms of non-theistic "spirit forces," at play in the universe, will come to see the evidence of their senses in terms of these beliefs.<BR>
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</FONT><FONT COLOR="#000000" BACK="#ffffff" style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3 PTSIZE=12 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0">In fact, there is no necessity for a "creation" problem in a religious/spiritual tradition, at least in terms of the creation of the universe and the existence of intelligence. Though I am not referring here to any specific religious tradition, it is entirely possible the universe and God were never created, but always have existed: the universe and God are both thus eternal, with God fulfilling a moral and spiritual role as "ruler" of the domain of "spirit," with the "materialistic" universe operating "separately," however someone may structure such a metaphysics. Thus the entire debate about the creation of the universe or intelligence is avoided! The universe and the intelligence of God has always existed!<BR>
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That such an obvious and simple alternative is not considered, along with numerous other religious and spiritual beliefs of human beings regarding how they view "Creation," reveals how biased this discussion is toward a specific religious ideology seeking to find a rational and/or empirical basis for its existence: in other words, this is a political/ideological power struggle, not a search for the truth considering with an open mind all the possible alternatives.<BR>
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Perhaps an exploration of what human spiritual/religious traditions now and throughout history have believed about the issues of the creation of the universe, the Earth and/or human life can open this discussion up to more alternatives?<BR>
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These two links below may offer some alternative views that are worth considering on this subject:<BR>
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<A HREF="http://zebu.uoregon.edu/~js/21st_century_science/lectures/lec20.html">http://zebu.uoregon.edu/~js/21st_century_science/lectures/lec20.html</A><BR>
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<A HREF="http://www.mythinglinks.org/ct~creation.html">http://www.mythinglinks.org/ct~creation.html</A><BR>
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Ted Moffett<BR>
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