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<P>Donovan,</P>
<P>You have no basis to make that ridiculous statement. Agreeing with the Supreme Court's interpretation of the First Amendment hardly equates to a 'grudge against God.' Holding a belief that private matters should remain so is not a 'grudge against God.' Your credibility suffers when you make foolish statements and jump to conclusions about those who disagree with you. <BR><BR>I am relieved that your opinion on this issue has not prevailed in court. I suggest you add a request for wisdom to your next prayer. Every post like your last one serves only to devalue your diploma.</P>
<P>Sunil</P></DIV>
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<DIV></DIV>From: <I>Donovan Arnold <donovanjarnold2005@yahoo.com></I><BR>To: <I>Sunil Ramalingam <sunilramalingam@hotmail.com>, vision2020@moscow.com</I><BR>Subject: <I>RE: [Vision2020] Public prayer on public money</I><BR>Date: <I>Fri, 19 Aug 2005 14:25:31 -0700 (PDT)</I><BR>>Sunil,<BR>><BR>>It is ironic how Native Americans were so violated by<BR>>their fellow human beings and still worship Him and<BR>>yet you are the one that holds a grudge against God<BR>>when he gave you everything.<BR>><BR>>Donovan J Arnold<BR>><BR>>--- Sunil Ramalingam <sunilramalingam@hotmail.com><BR>>wrote:<BR>><BR>><BR>>---------------------------------<BR>><BR>>Donovan,<BR>><BR>>I find your position here quite stunning. I think<BR>>Native Americans for instance might take a
different<BR>>position from yours on the historical effects of a<BR>>prayerful nation. And for you to try to link prayer<BR>>to complex political and historical events is<BR>>breath-taking.<BR>><BR>>Sunil<BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>>---------------------------------<BR>><BR>>From: Donovan Arnold <donovanjarnold2005@yahoo.com><BR>>To: Sunil Ramalingam <sunilramalingam@hotmail.com>,<BR>>vision2020@moscow.com<BR>>Subject: RE: [Vision2020] Public prayer on public<BR>>money<BR>>Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2005 22:00:16 -0700 (PDT)<BR>> >Sunil,<BR>> ><BR>> >You wrote:<BR>> ><BR>> >"You're becoming quite Kraute-esque in your refusal<BR>>to<BR>> >answer my questions on the wholesome impact prayer<BR>>has<BR>> >had on W's decisions and
policies. I think he's<BR>> >exhibit A in my case against public prayer or<BR>> >invocations of God's will."<BR>> ><BR>> >I think Bush in the White House is evidence that we<BR>> >cut too much prayer out. Ever notice as prayer goes<BR>> >down so does the quality of Presidents.<BR>> ><BR>> >When we were a religious nation we had Lincoln,<BR>> >Washington, and Roosevelt. We balanced the budget and<BR>> >won our wars. Now without prayer we have Bush, Bush<BR>> >Jr. and Ronald Reagan. We have the largest deficit<BR>>in<BR>> >the world and we haven't won a real war since WWII.<BR>> ><BR>> >Donovan J Arnold<BR>> ><BR>> ><BR>> ><BR>> >--- Sunil Ramalingam <sunilramalingam@hotmail.com><BR>> >wrote:<BR>> ><BR>> ><BR>>
>---------------------------------<BR>> ><BR>> >Donovan,<BR>> ><BR>> >You're becoming quite Kraute-esque in your refusal to<BR>> >answer my questions on the wholesome impact prayer<BR>>has<BR>> >had on W's decisions and policies. I think he's<BR>> >exhibit A in my case against public prayer or<BR>> >invocations of God's will.<BR>> ><BR>> >Sunil<BR>> ><BR>> ><BR>> ><BR>> >---------------------------------<BR>> ><BR>> >From: Donovan Arnold <donovanjarnold2005@yahoo.com><BR>> >To: Sunil Ramalingam <sunilramalingam@hotmail.com>,<BR>> >vision2020@moscow.com<BR>> >Subject: RE: [Vision2020] Public prayer on public<BR>> >money<BR>> >Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2005 16:10:11 -0700 (PDT)<BR>> >
>Sunil,<BR>> > ><BR>> > ><BR>> > >You wrote, "I think state-sponsored prayer IS state<BR>> > >religion."<BR>> > ><BR>> > >You are wrong. Prayer is not A religion. All or<BR>>most<BR>> > >religions PRAY or have some type or concept of<BR>> >PRAYER.<BR>> > >So the state is not forcing a religion on anyone by<BR>> > >allowing a moment for prayer. Nor is it promoting<BR>>one<BR>> > >religion over another. If do not want to pray, you<BR>>do<BR>> > >not have too, but do not prevent others. I would<BR>>also<BR>> > >like to point out that both the State and Federal<BR>> > >governments use public prayer before their meeting.<BR>> > ><BR>> > >Donovan J Arnold<BR>> > ><BR>> > ><BR>> > ><BR>> > >--- Sunil
Ramalingam <sunilramalingam@hotmail.com><BR>> > >wrote:<BR>> > ><BR>> > ><BR>> > >---------------------------------<BR>> > ><BR>> > >I think we're communicating, but we don't agree. I<BR>> > >think state-sponsored prayer IS state religion.<BR>>When<BR>> > >the group you're describing as the minority has to<BR>> >sit<BR>> > >there while the group you define as the majority<BR>>says<BR>> > >their prayer prior to public business, then your<BR>> > >majority is jamming its religion down the<BR>>minority's<BR>> > >throat. What you want your minority to do is<BR>>succumb<BR>> > >to the disrespect of a majority apparently intent<BR>>on<BR>> > >forcing its religion on them.<BR>> > ><BR>> > ><BR>> >
>I don't claim a constitutional right not to have to<BR>> > >see religious symbols or hear prayer; that's a<BR>>straw<BR>> > >man about to tip over. I do have a right not to<BR>>have<BR>> > >the state promote one religion over another. I'm<BR>>not<BR>> > >going to make other people have to listen to<BR>> > >Episcopalian prayers at public meetings, and in<BR>> > >exchange I expect to be able to skip the Baptist or<BR>> > >Muslim prayers too.<BR>> > ><BR>> > >Again, how much good is Bush's praying doing in<BR>> > >influencing his decisions? You see the Divine in<BR>>his<BR>> > >actions?<BR>> > ><BR>> > >Sunil<BR>> > ><BR>> > ><BR>> > ><BR>> > >---------------------------------<BR>> >
><BR>> > >From: Donovan Arnold<BR>><donovanjarnold2005@yahoo.com><BR>> > >To: Sunil Ramalingam<BR>><sunilramalingam@hotmail.com>,<BR>> > >vision2020@moscow.com<BR>> > >Subject: RE: [Vision2020] Public prayer on public<BR>> > >money<BR>> > >Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2005 15:36:10 -0700 (PDT)<BR>> > > >Sunil,<BR>> > > ><BR>> > > >We are not communicating obviously. I do not<BR>> >support<BR>> > > >state religion. I just oppose the government<BR>> >telling<BR>> > > >me I cannot pray and banning religion. Nor do I<BR>> > > >believe that persons have a constitutional right<BR>> >not<BR>> > > >to see or hear praying or religious symbols.<BR>> > > ><BR>> > > >It
just irritates me that people are so<BR>>intolerant<BR>> > > >they cannot give people 15 seconds to say a<BR>>prayer<BR>> >or<BR>> > > >the courteous of being able to express<BR>>themselves.<BR>> > > >Asking for one minute is not an unreasonable<BR>> >request<BR>> > > >of the minority to give to the majority. People<BR>>can<BR>> > >be<BR>> > > >so disrespectful sometimes.<BR>> > > ><BR>> > > >Donovan J Arnold<BR>> > > ><BR>> > > >--- Sunil Ramalingam<BR>><sunilramalingam@hotmail.com><BR>> > > >wrote:<BR>> > > ><BR>> > > ><BR>> > > >---------------------------------<BR>> > > ><BR>> > > >Donovan,<BR>> > > ><BR>> > > >Others have already pointed out
the Supreme Court<BR>> > > >decisions interpreting the Constitution. That<BR>> >works<BR>> > > >for me. I have lived in a country with a state<BR>> > > >religion, and I've always appreciated the<BR>> >difference<BR>> > > >between that approach and ours. I disagree with<BR>> >your<BR>> > > >views on state action and religion, and am<BR>>grateful<BR>> > > >the issue has been settled.<BR>> > > ><BR>> > > >Sunil<BR>> > > ><BR>> > > ><BR>> > > ><BR>> > > ><BR>> > > >---------------------------------<BR>> > > ><BR>> > > >From: Donovan Arnold<BR>> ><donovanjarnold2005@yahoo.com><BR>> > > >To: Sunil Ramalingam<BR>>
><sunilramalingam@hotmail.com>,<BR>> > > >vision2020@moscow.com<BR>> > > >Subject: RE: [Vision2020] Public prayer on<BR>>public<BR>> > > >money<BR>> > > >Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2005 20:27:26 -0700 (PDT)<BR>> > > > >Sunil,<BR>> > > > ><BR>> > > > >Can you please quote me in the Constitution<BR>>where<BR>> > >it<BR>> > > > >says you have a right to be protected from<BR>>being<BR>> > > > >around religion and prayer? Because I cannot<BR>> >find.<BR>> > >I<BR>> > > > >do see where it says the government cannot stop<BR>> >me<BR>> > > > >from practicing my religion, but I cannot find<BR>> > >where<BR>> > > > >it says people have to hide all
religious<BR>> >writings,<BR>> > > > >symbols, and speak out of the earshot of anyone<BR>> > >that<BR>> > > > >may not wish to listen?<BR>> > > > ><BR>> > > > ><BR>> > > > >If you are looking to save time at a public<BR>> >meeting<BR>> > > > >there are areas that you can cut out that will<BR>> >save<BR>> > > > >more time than the prayer. But again, where<BR>>does<BR>> >it<BR>> > > > >say that public meetings should run in the most<BR>> > > > >efficient manner as to not waste time or upset<BR>> > > >Sunil's<BR>> > > > >schedule?<BR>> > > > ><BR>> > > > >"It does not follow that you are being forced<BR>>to<BR>> > > > >practice atheism if you don't
pray at a public<BR>> > > > >meeting."<BR>> > > > ><BR>> > > > >Maybe not, but it does follow that if you are<BR>> > > > >preventing us from praying you are preventing<BR>>us<BR>> > >from<BR>> > > > >practicing our religion is says we are suppose<BR>>to<BR>> > > > >pray. Nor is allowing for prayer forcing a<BR>> >religion<BR>> > > >or<BR>> > > > >establishing a religion.<BR>> > > > ><BR>> > > > >Donovan J Arnold<BR>> > > > ><BR>> > > > ><BR>> > > > ><BR>> > > > >--- Sunil Ramalingam<BR>> ><sunilramalingam@hotmail.com><BR>> > > > >wrote:<BR>> > > > ><BR>> > > > ><BR>> > > >
>---------------------------------<BR>> > > > ><BR>> > > > >Donovan,<BR>> > > > ><BR>> > > > >I want you to be able to say all the prayers<BR>>you<BR>> > > >want,<BR>> > > > >whenever and wherever you want, as long as you<BR>> > >want,<BR>> > > > >as long as I don't have to hear them. I want<BR>>you<BR>> > >to<BR>> > > > >practice your religion, but not at the expense<BR>>of<BR>> > >my<BR>> > > > >time if it's at a public meeting. If we're at<BR>> >your<BR>> > > > >church, I'm more than willing to listen to you<BR>> >pray<BR>> > > > >out loud, because I have the simple choice of<BR>>not<BR>> > > > >going there at all.<BR>> > >
> ><BR>> > > > >It does not follow that you are being forced to<BR>> > > > >practice atheism if you don't pray at a public<BR>> > > > >meeting. You're not going to be dragged to a<BR>> > >gulag,<BR>> > > > >or barred from private prayer or from attending<BR>> > >your<BR>> > > > >church. You're simply not going to be able to<BR>> >use<BR>> > >up<BR>> > > > >other people's time at a public meeting for<BR>> > >something<BR>> > > > >you can do silently at that meeting.<BR>> > > > ><BR>> > > > >Politicians want to pray at public meetings so<BR>> >they<BR>> > > > >can act pious for the cameras and the public.<BR>> >You<BR>> > > > >think W's praying is
working out well for us?<BR>> > > > ><BR>> > > > >sunil<BR>> > > > ><BR>> > > > ><BR>> > > > ><BR>> > > > >---------------------------------<BR>> > > > ><BR>> > > > >From: Donovan Arnold<BR>> > ><donovanjarnold2005@yahoo.com><BR>> > > > >To: Tom Hansen <thansen@moscow.com>,<BR>> > > > >joanopyr@earthlink.net, vision2020@moscow.com<BR>> > > > >Subject: RE: [Vision2020] Public prayer on<BR>> >public<BR>> > > > >money<BR>> > > > >Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2005 16:31:15 -0700 (PDT)<BR>> > > > > >The Government representing a FAITH or<BR>>Religion<BR>> > >is<BR>> > > > > >against the
Constitution Mr. Hansen. Allowing<BR>>a<BR>> > > > >moment<BR>> > > > > >to pray does not.<BR>> > > > > ><BR>> > > > > >Further, it would be unfair that 95% of the<BR>> > >people<BR>> > > > >get<BR>> > > > > >only the same amount of time as the other 5%.<BR>> >The<BR>> > > > > >government represents people, not Gods, so it<BR>> > > >should<BR>> > > > > >be the people, not Gods that get equal time.<BR>> > > > > ><BR>> > > > > >Finally, by not allowing prayer you force<BR>> >people<BR>> > >to<BR>> > > > > >follow atheism, by allowing prayer you do not<BR>> > >force<BR>> > > > > >atheists to say the prayer. Therefore, it is<BR>>
> > > > >discriminatory NOT to allow prayer because<BR>>you<BR>> > >are<BR>> > > > > >preventing them from practicing their faith<BR>>and<BR>> > > > > >forcing them to practice another.<BR>> > > > > ><BR>> > > > > >What you are saying is that because my moment<BR>> >of<BR>> > > > > >worship does not suit everybody, I cannot<BR>> > >practice<BR>> > > > >it.<BR>> > > > > >This is the state stopping me from my free<BR>> > >exercise<BR>> > > > >of<BR>> > > > > >religion.<BR>> > > > > ><BR>> > > > > >Donovan J Arnold<BR>> > > > > ><BR>> > > > > ><BR>> > > > > ><BR>> > > > > >---
Tom Hansen <ththansenomoscowom> wrote:<BR>> > > > > ><BR>> > > > > > > As I have stated twice before, Arnold -<BR>> > > > > > ><BR>> > > > > > > I would be more than willing to support<BR>> >prayer<BR>> > > >at<BR>> > > > > > > all city council sessions,<BR>> > > > > > > provided that each (and EVERY) faith<BR>> > >represented<BR>> > > > > > > within Moscow is provided<BR>> > > > > > > "equal time".<BR>> > > > > > ><BR>> > > > > > > Lacking this possibility, the session<BR>> >further<BR>> > > > >lacks<BR>> > > > > > > equality. And I am<BR>> > > > > > > certain that you wouldn't
want that, now<BR>> >would<BR>> > > > >you?<BR>> > > > > > ><BR>> > > > > > > Enough said.<BR>> > > > > > ><BR>> > > > > > > Tom Hansen<BR>> > > > > > > Moscow, Idaho<BR>> > > > > > ><BR>> > > > > > > "If not us, who?<BR>> > > > > > > If not now, when?"<BR>> > > > > > ><BR>> > > > > > > - Unknown<BR>> > > > > > ><BR>> > > > > > > -----Original Message-----<BR>> > > > > > ><BR>> > > > > > > From: Donovan Arnold<BR>> > > > > > > [mamailtoodonovanjarnold05@yahoo.com]<BR>> > > > > > > Sent: Wednesday, August 17, 2005 2:57 PM<BR>> >
> > > > > To: Tom Hansen; jojoanopyraearthlinket;<BR>> > > > > > > vision2020@momoscowom<BR>> > > > > > > Subject: RE: [Vision2020] Public prayer on<BR>> > > >public<BR>> > > > > > > money<BR>> > > > > > ><BR>> > > > > > > Mr. Hansen,<BR>> > > > > > ><BR>> > > > > > > You are only offering circular arguments.<BR>>A<BR>> > > > >speaker<BR>> > > > > > > can also ignore a prayer completely at a<BR>> > >meeting<BR>> > > > > > > too.<BR>> > > > > > > You silly man. So why not let those that<BR>> > >believe<BR>> > > > >in<BR>> > > > > > > praying before conducting
important<BR>>business<BR>> > > >pray<BR>> > > > > > > and<BR>> > > > > > > those that wish not to think about<BR>>something<BR>> > > >else.<BR>> > > > > > > Why<BR>> > > > > > > should those that wish to pray be denied.<BR>>If<BR>> > >you<BR>> > > > > > > allow<BR>> > > > > > > prayer, everyone gets what they want. If<BR>>you<BR>> > > > > > > disallow<BR>> > > > > > > prayer only those that wish not to pray<BR>>get<BR>> > >what<BR>> > > > > > > they<BR>> > > > > > > want.<BR>> > > > > > ><BR>> > > > > > > Donovan J Arnold<BR>> > > > > > ><BR>> > > >
> > ><BR>> > > > > > ><BR>> > > > > > ><BR>> > > > > ><BR>> > > > > ><BR>> > > > > ><BR>> > > > ><BR>> > > ><BR>> > ><BR>> ><BR>> >____________________________________________________<BR>> > > > > >Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your<BR>>home<BR>> > >page<BR>> > > > > >http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs<BR>> > > > > ><BR>> > > > > ><BR>> > > > ><BR>> > > ><BR>> > ><BR>> ><BR>> >_____________________________________________________<BR>> > > > > > List services made available by First Step<BR>> > > > >Internet,<BR>> > > > > > serving the
communities of the Palouse<BR>>since<BR>> > > >1994.<BR>> > > > > > http://www.fsr.net<BR>> > > > > > mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com<BR>> > > > ><BR>> > > ><BR>> > ><BR>> ><BR>> >ŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻ<BR>> > > > ><BR>> > > > > ><BR>> > > ><BR>> > ><BR>> ><BR>> >_____________________________________________________<BR>> > > > > > List services made available by First Step<BR>> > > > > > Internet,<BR>> > > > > > serving the communities of the Palouse<BR>>since<BR>>
> > >1994.<BR>> > > > > ><BR>> > > > > > http://www.fsr.net<BR>> > > > > ><BR>> > > > > > mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com<BR>> > > > > ><BR>> > > ><BR>> > ><BR>> ><BR>> >ŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻ<BR>> > > > > ><BR>> > > > ><BR>> > > ><BR>> > >__________________________________________________<BR>> > > > >Do You Yahoo!?<BR>> > > > >Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam<BR>> > > >protection around<BR>> > > > >http://mail.yahoo.com<BR>> > >
><BR>> > ><BR>> >__________________________________________________<BR>> > > >Do You Yahoo!?<BR>> > > >Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam<BR>> > >protection around<BR>> > > >http://mail.yahoo.com<BR>> > ><BR>> > > ><BR>> ><BR>> >_____________________________________________________<BR>> > > > List services made available by First Step<BR>> > > > Internet,<BR>> > > > serving the communities of the Palouse since<BR>> >1994.<BR>> > > ><BR>> > > > http://www.fsr.net<BR>> > > ><BR>> > > >
mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com<BR>> > > ><BR>> ><BR>> >ŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻ<BR>> > > ><BR>> > ><BR>> > >__________________________________________________<BR>> > >Do You Yahoo!?<BR>> > >Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam<BR>> >protection around<BR>> > >http://mail.yahoo.com<BR>> > ><BR>> ><BR>> >_____________________________________________________<BR>> > > List services made available by First Step<BR>> >Internet,<BR>> > > serving the communities of the Palouse since<BR>>1994.<BR>> > > http://www.fsr.net<BR>> >
> mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com<BR>> ><BR>> >ŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻ<BR>> ><BR>> >__________________________________________________<BR>> >Do You Yahoo!?<BR>> >Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam<BR>>protection around<BR>> >http://mail.yahoo.com<BR>> ><BR>> >_____________________________________________________<BR>> > List services made available by First Step<BR>>Internet,<BR>> > serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.<BR>> > http://www.fsr.net<BR>> > mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com<BR>>
>ŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻ<BR>><BR>> ><BR>>_____________________________________________________<BR>> > List services made available by First Step<BR>> > Internet,<BR>> > serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.<BR>> ><BR>> > http://www.fsr.net<BR>> ><BR>> > mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com<BR>> ><BR>>ŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻ<BR>> ><BR>><BR>>__________________________________________________<BR>>Do You Yahoo!?<BR>>Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around<BR>>http://mail.yahoo.com<BR></FONT></BLOCKQUOTE></div></html>