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<P>Donovan,</P>
<P>I find your position here quite stunning. I think Native Americans for instance might take a different position from yours on the historical effects of a prayerful nation. And for you to try to link prayer to complex political and historical events is breath-taking.<BR><BR>Sunil</P></DIV>
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<DIV></DIV>From: <I>Donovan Arnold <donovanjarnold2005@yahoo.com></I><BR>To: <I>Sunil Ramalingam <sunilramalingam@hotmail.com>, vision2020@moscow.com</I><BR>Subject: <I>RE: [Vision2020] Public prayer on public money</I><BR>Date: <I>Thu, 18 Aug 2005 22:00:16 -0700 (PDT)</I><BR>>Sunil,<BR>><BR>>You wrote:<BR>><BR>>"You're becoming quite Kraute-esque in your refusal to<BR>>answer my questions on the wholesome impact prayer has<BR>>had on W's decisions and policies. I think he's<BR>>exhibit A in my case against public prayer or<BR>>invocations of God's will."<BR>><BR>>I think Bush in the White House is evidence that we<BR>>cut too much prayer out. Ever notice as prayer goes<BR>>down so does the quality of Presidents.<BR>><BR>>When we were a religious nation we had
Lincoln,<BR>>Washington, and Roosevelt. We balanced the budget and<BR>>won our wars. Now without prayer we have Bush, Bush<BR>>Jr. and Ronald Reagan. We have the largest deficit in<BR>>the world and we haven't won a real war since WWII.<BR>><BR>>Donovan J Arnold<BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>>--- Sunil Ramalingam <sunilramalingam@hotmail.com><BR>>wrote:<BR>><BR>><BR>>---------------------------------<BR>><BR>>Donovan,<BR>><BR>>You're becoming quite Kraute-esque in your refusal to<BR>>answer my questions on the wholesome impact prayer has<BR>>had on W's decisions and policies. I think he's<BR>>exhibit A in my case against public prayer or<BR>>invocations of God's will.<BR>><BR>>Sunil<BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>>---------------------------------<BR>><BR>>From: Donovan
Arnold <donovanjarnold2005@yahoo.com><BR>>To: Sunil Ramalingam <sunilramalingam@hotmail.com>,<BR>>vision2020@moscow.com<BR>>Subject: RE: [Vision2020] Public prayer on public<BR>>money<BR>>Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2005 16:10:11 -0700 (PDT)<BR>> >Sunil,<BR>> ><BR>> ><BR>> >You wrote, "I think state-sponsored prayer IS state<BR>> >religion."<BR>> ><BR>> >You are wrong. Prayer is not A religion. All or most<BR>> >religions PRAY or have some type or concept of<BR>>PRAYER.<BR>> >So the state is not forcing a religion on anyone by<BR>> >allowing a moment for prayer. Nor is it promoting one<BR>> >religion over another. If do not want to pray, you do<BR>> >not have too, but do not prevent others. I would also<BR>> >like to point out that both the State and
Federal<BR>> >governments use public prayer before their meeting.<BR>> ><BR>> >Donovan J Arnold<BR>> ><BR>> ><BR>> ><BR>> >--- Sunil Ramalingam <sunilramalingam@hotmail.com><BR>> >wrote:<BR>> ><BR>> ><BR>> >---------------------------------<BR>> ><BR>> >I think we're communicating, but we don't agree. I<BR>> >think state-sponsored prayer IS state religion. When<BR>> >the group you're describing as the minority has to<BR>>sit<BR>> >there while the group you define as the majority says<BR>> >their prayer prior to public business, then your<BR>> >majority is jamming its religion down the minority's<BR>> >throat. What you want your minority to do is succumb<BR>> >to the disrespect of a majority apparently intent on<BR>>
>forcing its religion on them.<BR>> ><BR>> ><BR>> >I don't claim a constitutional right not to have to<BR>> >see religious symbols or hear prayer; that's a straw<BR>> >man about to tip over. I do have a right not to have<BR>> >the state promote one religion over another. I'm not<BR>> >going to make other people have to listen to<BR>> >Episcopalian prayers at public meetings, and in<BR>> >exchange I expect to be able to skip the Baptist or<BR>> >Muslim prayers too.<BR>> ><BR>> >Again, how much good is Bush's praying doing in<BR>> >influencing his decisions? You see the Divine in his<BR>> >actions?<BR>> ><BR>> >Sunil<BR>> ><BR>> ><BR>> ><BR>> >---------------------------------<BR>> ><BR>> >From: Donovan Arnold
<donovanjarnold2005@yahoo.com><BR>> >To: Sunil Ramalingam <sunilramalingam@hotmail.com>,<BR>> >vision2020@moscow.com<BR>> >Subject: RE: [Vision2020] Public prayer on public<BR>> >money<BR>> >Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2005 15:36:10 -0700 (PDT)<BR>> > >Sunil,<BR>> > ><BR>> > >We are not communicating obviously. I do not<BR>>support<BR>> > >state religion. I just oppose the government<BR>>telling<BR>> > >me I cannot pray and banning religion. Nor do I<BR>> > >believe that persons have a constitutional right<BR>>not<BR>> > >to see or hear praying or religious symbols.<BR>> > ><BR>> > >It just irritates me that people are so intolerant<BR>> > >they cannot give people 15 seconds to say a prayer<BR>>or<BR>> > >the
courteous of being able to express themselves.<BR>> > >Asking for one minute is not an unreasonable<BR>>request<BR>> > >of the minority to give to the majority. People can<BR>> >be<BR>> > >so disrespectful sometimes.<BR>> > ><BR>> > >Donovan J Arnold<BR>> > ><BR>> > >--- Sunil Ramalingam <sunilramalingam@hotmail.com><BR>> > >wrote:<BR>> > ><BR>> > ><BR>> > >---------------------------------<BR>> > ><BR>> > >Donovan,<BR>> > ><BR>> > >Others have already pointed out the Supreme Court<BR>> > >decisions interpreting the Constitution. That<BR>>works<BR>> > >for me. I have lived in a country with a state<BR>> > >religion, and I've always appreciated the<BR>>difference<BR>> > >between
that approach and ours. I disagree with<BR>>your<BR>> > >views on state action and religion, and am grateful<BR>> > >the issue has been settled.<BR>> > ><BR>> > >Sunil<BR>> > ><BR>> > ><BR>> > ><BR>> > ><BR>> > >---------------------------------<BR>> > ><BR>> > >From: Donovan Arnold<BR>><donovanjarnold2005@yahoo.com><BR>> > >To: Sunil Ramalingam<BR>><sunilramalingam@hotmail.com>,<BR>> > >vision2020@moscow.com<BR>> > >Subject: RE: [Vision2020] Public prayer on public<BR>> > >money<BR>> > >Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2005 20:27:26 -0700 (PDT)<BR>> > > >Sunil,<BR>> > > ><BR>> > > >Can you please quote me in the Constitution where<BR>>
>it<BR>> > > >says you have a right to be protected from being<BR>> > > >around religion and prayer? Because I cannot<BR>>find.<BR>> >I<BR>> > > >do see where it says the government cannot stop<BR>>me<BR>> > > >from practicing my religion, but I cannot find<BR>> >where<BR>> > > >it says people have to hide all religious<BR>>writings,<BR>> > > >symbols, and speak out of the earshot of anyone<BR>> >that<BR>> > > >may not wish to listen?<BR>> > > ><BR>> > > ><BR>> > > >If you are looking to save time at a public<BR>>meeting<BR>> > > >there are areas that you can cut out that will<BR>>save<BR>> > > >more time than the prayer. But again, where does<BR>>it<BR>> > > >say that public meetings should run
in the most<BR>> > > >efficient manner as to not waste time or upset<BR>> > >Sunil's<BR>> > > >schedule?<BR>> > > ><BR>> > > >"It does not follow that you are being forced to<BR>> > > >practice atheism if you don't pray at a public<BR>> > > >meeting."<BR>> > > ><BR>> > > >Maybe not, but it does follow that if you are<BR>> > > >preventing us from praying you are preventing us<BR>> >from<BR>> > > >practicing our religion is says we are suppose to<BR>> > > >pray. Nor is allowing for prayer forcing a<BR>>religion<BR>> > >or<BR>> > > >establishing a religion.<BR>> > > ><BR>> > > >Donovan J Arnold<BR>> > > ><BR>> > > ><BR>> > > ><BR>> > > >--- Sunil
Ramalingam<BR>><sunilramalingam@hotmail.com><BR>> > > >wrote:<BR>> > > ><BR>> > > ><BR>> > > >---------------------------------<BR>> > > ><BR>> > > >Donovan,<BR>> > > ><BR>> > > >I want you to be able to say all the prayers you<BR>> > >want,<BR>> > > >whenever and wherever you want, as long as you<BR>> >want,<BR>> > > >as long as I don't have to hear them. I want you<BR>> >to<BR>> > > >practice your religion, but not at the expense of<BR>> >my<BR>> > > >time if it's at a public meeting. If we're at<BR>>your<BR>> > > >church, I'm more than willing to listen to you<BR>>pray<BR>> > > >out loud, because I have the simple choice of not<BR>> > > >going
there at all.<BR>> > > ><BR>> > > >It does not follow that you are being forced to<BR>> > > >practice atheism if you don't pray at a public<BR>> > > >meeting. You're not going to be dragged to a<BR>> >gulag,<BR>> > > >or barred from private prayer or from attending<BR>> >your<BR>> > > >church. You're simply not going to be able to<BR>>use<BR>> >up<BR>> > > >other people's time at a public meeting for<BR>> >something<BR>> > > >you can do silently at that meeting.<BR>> > > ><BR>> > > >Politicians want to pray at public meetings so<BR>>they<BR>> > > >can act pious for the cameras and the public.<BR>>You<BR>> > > >think W's praying is working out well for us?<BR>> > > ><BR>> >
> >sunil<BR>> > > ><BR>> > > ><BR>> > > ><BR>> > > >---------------------------------<BR>> > > ><BR>> > > >From: Donovan Arnold<BR>> ><donovanjarnold2005@yahoo.com><BR>> > > >To: Tom Hansen <thansen@moscow.com>,<BR>> > > >joanopyr@earthlink.net, vision2020@moscow.com<BR>> > > >Subject: RE: [Vision2020] Public prayer on<BR>>public<BR>> > > >money<BR>> > > >Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2005 16:31:15 -0700 (PDT)<BR>> > > > >The Government representing a FAITH or Religion<BR>> >is<BR>> > > > >against the Constitution Mr. Hansen. Allowing a<BR>> > > >moment<BR>> > > > >to pray does not.<BR>> > > > ><BR>> > > >
>Further, it would be unfair that 95% of the<BR>> >people<BR>> > > >get<BR>> > > > >only the same amount of time as the other 5%.<BR>>The<BR>> > > > >government represents people, not Gods, so it<BR>> > >should<BR>> > > > >be the people, not Gods that get equal time.<BR>> > > > ><BR>> > > > >Finally, by not allowing prayer you force<BR>>people<BR>> >to<BR>> > > > >follow atheism, by allowing prayer you do not<BR>> >force<BR>> > > > >atheists to say the prayer. Therefore, it is<BR>> > > > >discriminatory NOT to allow prayer because you<BR>> >are<BR>> > > > >preventing them from practicing their faith and<BR>> > > > >forcing them to practice another.<BR>> > > > ><BR>>
> > > >What you are saying is that because my moment<BR>>of<BR>> > > > >worship does not suit everybody, I cannot<BR>> >practice<BR>> > > >it.<BR>> > > > >This is the state stopping me from my free<BR>> >exercise<BR>> > > >of<BR>> > > > >religion.<BR>> > > > ><BR>> > > > >Donovan J Arnold<BR>> > > > ><BR>> > > > ><BR>> > > > ><BR>> > > > >--- Tom Hansen <ththansenomoscowom> wrote:<BR>> > > > ><BR>> > > > > > As I have stated twice before, Arnold -<BR>> > > > > ><BR>> > > > > > I would be more than willing to support<BR>>prayer<BR>> > >at<BR>> > > > > > all city council sessions,<BR>> > > >
> > provided that each (and EVERY) faith<BR>> >represented<BR>> > > > > > within Moscow is provided<BR>> > > > > > "equal time".<BR>> > > > > ><BR>> > > > > > Lacking this possibility, the session<BR>>further<BR>> > > >lacks<BR>> > > > > > equality. And I am<BR>> > > > > > certain that you wouldn't want that, now<BR>>would<BR>> > > >you?<BR>> > > > > ><BR>> > > > > > Enough said.<BR>> > > > > ><BR>> > > > > > Tom Hansen<BR>> > > > > > Moscow, Idaho<BR>> > > > > ><BR>> > > > > > "If not us, who?<BR>> > > > > > If not now, when?"<BR>> > > > > ><BR>> > > > >
> - Unknown<BR>> > > > > ><BR>> > > > > > -----Original Message-----<BR>> > > > > ><BR>> > > > > > From: Donovan Arnold<BR>> > > > > > [mamailtoodonovanjarnold05@yahoo.com]<BR>> > > > > > Sent: Wednesday, August 17, 2005 2:57 PM<BR>> > > > > > To: Tom Hansen; jojoanopyraearthlinket;<BR>> > > > > > vision2020@momoscowom<BR>> > > > > > Subject: RE: [Vision2020] Public prayer on<BR>> > >public<BR>> > > > > > money<BR>> > > > > ><BR>> > > > > > Mr. Hansen,<BR>> > > > > ><BR>> > > > > > You are only offering circular arguments. A<BR>> > > >speaker<BR>> > > > > > can also ignore a prayer completely at
a<BR>> >meeting<BR>> > > > > > too.<BR>> > > > > > You silly man. So why not let those that<BR>> >believe<BR>> > > >in<BR>> > > > > > praying before conducting important business<BR>> > >pray<BR>> > > > > > and<BR>> > > > > > those that wish not to think about something<BR>> > >else.<BR>> > > > > > Why<BR>> > > > > > should those that wish to pray be denied. If<BR>> >you<BR>> > > > > > allow<BR>> > > > > > prayer, everyone gets what they want. If you<BR>> > > > > > disallow<BR>> > > > > > prayer only those that wish not to pray get<BR>> >what<BR>> > > > > > they<BR>> > > > > > want.<BR>> > > >
> ><BR>> > > > > > Donovan J Arnold<BR>> > > > > ><BR>> > > > > ><BR>> > > > > ><BR>> > > > > ><BR>> > > > ><BR>> > > > ><BR>> > > > ><BR>> > > ><BR>> > ><BR>> ><BR>> >____________________________________________________<BR>> > > > >Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home<BR>> >page<BR>> > > > >http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs<BR>> > > > ><BR>> > > > ><BR>> > > ><BR>> > ><BR>> ><BR>> >_____________________________________________________<BR>> > > > > List services made available by First Step<BR>> > > >Internet,<BR>> > > > > serving the communities of the
Palouse since<BR>> > >1994.<BR>> > > > > http://www.fsr.net<BR>> > > > > mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com<BR>> > > ><BR>> > ><BR>> ><BR>> >ŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻ<BR>> > > ><BR>> > > > ><BR>> > ><BR>> ><BR>> >_____________________________________________________<BR>> > > > > List services made available by First Step<BR>> > > > > Internet,<BR>> > > > > serving the communities of the Palouse since<BR>> > >1994.<BR>> > > > ><BR>> > > >
> http://www.fsr.net<BR>> > > > ><BR>> > > > > mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com<BR>> > > > ><BR>> > ><BR>> ><BR>> >ŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻ<BR>> > > > ><BR>> > > ><BR>> > ><BR>> >__________________________________________________<BR>> > > >Do You Yahoo!?<BR>> > > >Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam<BR>> > >protection around<BR>> > > >http://mail.yahoo.com<BR>> > ><BR>> > >__________________________________________________<BR>> > >Do You Yahoo!?<BR>> > >Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best
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