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<P>Donovan,</P>
<P>You're becoming quite Kraute-esque in your refusal to answer my questions on the wholesome impact prayer has had on W's decisions and policies. I think he's exhibit A in my case against public prayer or invocations of God's will. <BR><BR>Sunil</P></DIV>
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<DIV></DIV>From: <I>Donovan Arnold <donovanjarnold2005@yahoo.com></I><BR>To: <I>Sunil Ramalingam <sunilramalingam@hotmail.com>, vision2020@moscow.com</I><BR>Subject: <I>RE: [Vision2020] Public prayer on public money</I><BR>Date: <I>Thu, 18 Aug 2005 16:10:11 -0700 (PDT)</I><BR>>Sunil,<BR>><BR>><BR>>You wrote, "I think state-sponsored prayer IS state<BR>>religion."<BR>><BR>>You are wrong. Prayer is not A religion. All or most<BR>>religions PRAY or have some type or concept of PRAYER.<BR>>So the state is not forcing a religion on anyone by<BR>>allowing a moment for prayer. Nor is it promoting one<BR>>religion over another. If do not want to pray, you do<BR>>not have too, but do not prevent others. I would also<BR>>like to point out that both the State and Federal<BR>>governments use public
prayer before their meeting.<BR>><BR>>Donovan J Arnold<BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>>--- Sunil Ramalingam <sunilramalingam@hotmail.com><BR>>wrote:<BR>><BR>><BR>>---------------------------------<BR>><BR>>I think we're communicating, but we don't agree. I<BR>>think state-sponsored prayer IS state religion. When<BR>>the group you're describing as the minority has to sit<BR>>there while the group you define as the majority says<BR>>their prayer prior to public business, then your<BR>>majority is jamming its religion down the minority's<BR>>throat. What you want your minority to do is succumb<BR>>to the disrespect of a majority apparently intent on<BR>>forcing its religion on them.<BR>><BR>><BR>>I don't claim a constitutional right not to have to<BR>>see religious symbols or hear prayer;
that's a straw<BR>>man about to tip over. I do have a right not to have<BR>>the state promote one religion over another. I'm not<BR>>going to make other people have to listen to<BR>>Episcopalian prayers at public meetings, and in<BR>>exchange I expect to be able to skip the Baptist or<BR>>Muslim prayers too.<BR>><BR>>Again, how much good is Bush's praying doing in<BR>>influencing his decisions? You see the Divine in his<BR>>actions?<BR>><BR>>Sunil<BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>>---------------------------------<BR>><BR>>From: Donovan Arnold <donovanjarnold2005@yahoo.com><BR>>To: Sunil Ramalingam <sunilramalingam@hotmail.com>,<BR>>vision2020@moscow.com<BR>>Subject: RE: [Vision2020] Public prayer on public<BR>>money<BR>>Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2005
15:36:10 -0700 (PDT)<BR>> >Sunil,<BR>> ><BR>> >We are not communicating obviously. I do not support<BR>> >state religion. I just oppose the government telling<BR>> >me I cannot pray and banning religion. Nor do I<BR>> >believe that persons have a constitutional right not<BR>> >to see or hear praying or religious symbols.<BR>> ><BR>> >It just irritates me that people are so intolerant<BR>> >they cannot give people 15 seconds to say a prayer or<BR>> >the courteous of being able to express themselves.<BR>> >Asking for one minute is not an unreasonable request<BR>> >of the minority to give to the majority. People can<BR>>be<BR>> >so disrespectful sometimes.<BR>> ><BR>> >Donovan J Arnold<BR>> ><BR>> >--- Sunil Ramalingam <sunilramalingam@hotmail.com><BR>> >wrote:<BR>>
><BR>> ><BR>> >---------------------------------<BR>> ><BR>> >Donovan,<BR>> ><BR>> >Others have already pointed out the Supreme Court<BR>> >decisions interpreting the Constitution. That works<BR>> >for me. I have lived in a country with a state<BR>> >religion, and I've always appreciated the difference<BR>> >between that approach and ours. I disagree with your<BR>> >views on state action and religion, and am grateful<BR>> >the issue has been settled.<BR>> ><BR>> >Sunil<BR>> ><BR>> ><BR>> ><BR>> ><BR>> >---------------------------------<BR>> ><BR>> >From: Donovan Arnold <donovanjarnold2005@yahoo.com><BR>> >To: Sunil Ramalingam <sunilramalingam@hotmail.com>,<BR>>
>vision2020@moscow.com<BR>> >Subject: RE: [Vision2020] Public prayer on public<BR>> >money<BR>> >Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2005 20:27:26 -0700 (PDT)<BR>> > >Sunil,<BR>> > ><BR>> > >Can you please quote me in the Constitution where<BR>>it<BR>> > >says you have a right to be protected from being<BR>> > >around religion and prayer? Because I cannot find.<BR>>I<BR>> > >do see where it says the government cannot stop me<BR>> > >from practicing my religion, but I cannot find<BR>>where<BR>> > >it says people have to hide all religious writings,<BR>> > >symbols, and speak out of the earshot of anyone<BR>>that<BR>> > >may not wish to listen?<BR>> > ><BR>> > ><BR>> > >If you are looking to save time at a public meeting<BR>> >
>there are areas that you can cut out that will save<BR>> > >more time than the prayer. But again, where does it<BR>> > >say that public meetings should run in the most<BR>> > >efficient manner as to not waste time or upset<BR>> >Sunil's<BR>> > >schedule?<BR>> > ><BR>> > >"It does not follow that you are being forced to<BR>> > >practice atheism if you don't pray at a public<BR>> > >meeting."<BR>> > ><BR>> > >Maybe not, but it does follow that if you are<BR>> > >preventing us from praying you are preventing us<BR>>from<BR>> > >practicing our religion is says we are suppose to<BR>> > >pray. Nor is allowing for prayer forcing a religion<BR>> >or<BR>> > >establishing a religion.<BR>> > ><BR>> > >Donovan J Arnold<BR>> >
><BR>> > ><BR>> > ><BR>> > >--- Sunil Ramalingam <sunilramalingam@hotmail.com><BR>> > >wrote:<BR>> > ><BR>> > ><BR>> > >---------------------------------<BR>> > ><BR>> > >Donovan,<BR>> > ><BR>> > >I want you to be able to say all the prayers you<BR>> >want,<BR>> > >whenever and wherever you want, as long as you<BR>>want,<BR>> > >as long as I don't have to hear them. I want you<BR>>to<BR>> > >practice your religion, but not at the expense of<BR>>my<BR>> > >time if it's at a public meeting. If we're at your<BR>> > >church, I'm more than willing to listen to you pray<BR>> > >out loud, because I have the simple choice of not<BR>> > >going there at all.<BR>> > ><BR>> >
>It does not follow that you are being forced to<BR>> > >practice atheism if you don't pray at a public<BR>> > >meeting. You're not going to be dragged to a<BR>>gulag,<BR>> > >or barred from private prayer or from attending<BR>>your<BR>> > >church. You're simply not going to be able to use<BR>>up<BR>> > >other people's time at a public meeting for<BR>>something<BR>> > >you can do silently at that meeting.<BR>> > ><BR>> > >Politicians want to pray at public meetings so they<BR>> > >can act pious for the cameras and the public. You<BR>> > >think W's praying is working out well for us?<BR>> > ><BR>> > >sunil<BR>> > ><BR>> > ><BR>> > ><BR>> > >---------------------------------<BR>> > ><BR>>
> >From: Donovan Arnold<BR>><donovanjarnold2005@yahoo.com><BR>> > >To: Tom Hansen <thansen@moscow.com>,<BR>> > >joanopyr@earthlink.net, vision2020@moscow.com<BR>> > >Subject: RE: [Vision2020] Public prayer on public<BR>> > >money<BR>> > >Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2005 16:31:15 -0700 (PDT)<BR>> > > >The Government representing a FAITH or Religion<BR>>is<BR>> > > >against the Constitution Mr. Hansen. Allowing a<BR>> > >moment<BR>> > > >to pray does not.<BR>> > > ><BR>> > > >Further, it would be unfair that 95% of the<BR>>people<BR>> > >get<BR>> > > >only the same amount of time as the other 5%. The<BR>> > > >government represents people, not Gods, so it<BR>> >should<BR>>
> > >be the people, not Gods that get equal time.<BR>> > > ><BR>> > > >Finally, by not allowing prayer you force people<BR>>to<BR>> > > >follow atheism, by allowing prayer you do not<BR>>force<BR>> > > >atheists to say the prayer. Therefore, it is<BR>> > > >discriminatory NOT to allow prayer because you<BR>>are<BR>> > > >preventing them from practicing their faith and<BR>> > > >forcing them to practice another.<BR>> > > ><BR>> > > >What you are saying is that because my moment of<BR>> > > >worship does not suit everybody, I cannot<BR>>practice<BR>> > >it.<BR>> > > >This is the state stopping me from my free<BR>>exercise<BR>> > >of<BR>> > > >religion.<BR>> > > ><BR>> > > >Donovan J
Arnold<BR>> > > ><BR>> > > ><BR>> > > ><BR>> > > >--- Tom Hansen <ththansenomoscowom> wrote:<BR>> > > ><BR>> > > > > As I have stated twice before, Arnold -<BR>> > > > ><BR>> > > > > I would be more than willing to support prayer<BR>> >at<BR>> > > > > all city council sessions,<BR>> > > > > provided that each (and EVERY) faith<BR>>represented<BR>> > > > > within Moscow is provided<BR>> > > > > "equal time".<BR>> > > > ><BR>> > > > > Lacking this possibility, the session further<BR>> > >lacks<BR>> > > > > equality. And I am<BR>> > > > > certain that you wouldn't want that, now would<BR>> > >you?<BR>> > > >
><BR>> > > > > Enough said.<BR>> > > > ><BR>> > > > > Tom Hansen<BR>> > > > > Moscow, Idaho<BR>> > > > ><BR>> > > > > "If not us, who?<BR>> > > > > If not now, when?"<BR>> > > > ><BR>> > > > > - Unknown<BR>> > > > ><BR>> > > > > -----Original Message-----<BR>> > > > ><BR>> > > > > From: Donovan Arnold<BR>> > > > > [mamailtoodonovanjarnold05@yahoo.com]<BR>> > > > > Sent: Wednesday, August 17, 2005 2:57 PM<BR>> > > > > To: Tom Hansen; jojoanopyraearthlinket;<BR>> > > > > vision2020@momoscowom<BR>> > > > > Subject: RE: [Vision2020] Public prayer on<BR>> >public<BR>> > > > > money<BR>> > > >
><BR>> > > > > Mr. Hansen,<BR>> > > > ><BR>> > > > > You are only offering circular arguments. A<BR>> > >speaker<BR>> > > > > can also ignore a prayer completely at a<BR>>meeting<BR>> > > > > too.<BR>> > > > > You silly man. So why not let those that<BR>>believe<BR>> > >in<BR>> > > > > praying before conducting important business<BR>> >pray<BR>> > > > > and<BR>> > > > > those that wish not to think about something<BR>> >else.<BR>> > > > > Why<BR>> > > > > should those that wish to pray be denied. If<BR>>you<BR>> > > > > allow<BR>> > > > > prayer, everyone gets what they want. If you<BR>> > > > > disallow<BR>> > > > > prayer
only those that wish not to pray get<BR>>what<BR>> > > > > they<BR>> > > > > want.<BR>> > > > ><BR>> > > > > Donovan J Arnold<BR>> > > > ><BR>> > > > ><BR>> > > > ><BR>> > > > ><BR>> > > ><BR>> > > ><BR>> > > ><BR>> > ><BR>> ><BR>> >____________________________________________________<BR>> > > >Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home<BR>>page<BR>> > > >http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs<BR>> > > ><BR>> > > ><BR>> > ><BR>> ><BR>> >_____________________________________________________<BR>> > > > List services made available by First Step<BR>> > >Internet,<BR>> > > > serving the communities
of the Palouse since<BR>> >1994.<BR>> > > > http://www.fsr.net<BR>> > > > mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com<BR>> > ><BR>> ><BR>> >ŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻ<BR>> > ><BR>> > > ><BR>> ><BR>> >_____________________________________________________<BR>> > > > List services made available by First Step<BR>> > > > Internet,<BR>> > > > serving the communities of the Palouse since<BR>> >1994.<BR>> > > ><BR>> > > > http://www.fsr.net<BR>> > >
><BR>> > > > mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com<BR>> > > ><BR>> ><BR>> >ŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻ<BR>> > > ><BR>> > ><BR>> > >__________________________________________________<BR>> > >Do You Yahoo!?<BR>> > >Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam<BR>> >protection around<BR>> > >http://mail.yahoo.com<BR>> ><BR>> >__________________________________________________<BR>> >Do You Yahoo!?<BR>> >Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam<BR>>protection around<BR>> >http://mail.yahoo.com<BR>><BR>> ><BR>>_____________________________________________________<BR>> > List services made available by First Step<BR>> >
Internet,<BR>> > serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.<BR>> ><BR>> > http://www.fsr.net<BR>> ><BR>> > mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com<BR>> ><BR>>ŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻ<BR>> ><BR>><BR>>__________________________________________________<BR>>Do You Yahoo!?<BR>>Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around<BR>>http://mail.yahoo.com<BR>><BR>>_____________________________________________________<BR>> List services made available by First Step Internet,<BR>> serving the communities of the Palouse since
1994.<BR>> http://www.fsr.net<BR>> mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com<BR>>ŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻ<BR></FONT></BLOCKQUOTE></div></html>