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<P>I think we're communicating, but we don't agree. I think state-sponsored prayer IS state religion. When the group you're describing as the minority has to sit there while the group you define as the majority says their prayer prior to public business, then your majority is jamming its religion down the minority's throat. What you want your minority to do is succumb to the disrespect of a majority apparently intent on forcing its religion on them. </P>
<P><BR>I don't claim a constitutional right not to have to see religious symbols or hear prayer; that's a straw man about to tip over. I do have a right not to have the state promote one religion over another. I'm not going to make other people have to listen to Episcopalian prayers at public meetings, and in exchange I expect to be able to skip the Baptist or Muslim prayers too.</P>
<P>Again, how much good is Bush's praying doing in influencing his decisions? You see the Divine in his actions?</P>
<P>Sunil</P></DIV>
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<DIV></DIV>From: <I>Donovan Arnold <donovanjarnold2005@yahoo.com></I><BR>To: <I>Sunil Ramalingam <sunilramalingam@hotmail.com>, vision2020@moscow.com</I><BR>Subject: <I>RE: [Vision2020] Public prayer on public money</I><BR>Date: <I>Thu, 18 Aug 2005 15:36:10 -0700 (PDT)</I><BR>>Sunil,<BR>><BR>>We are not communicating obviously. I do not support<BR>>state religion. I just oppose the government telling<BR>>me I cannot pray and banning religion. Nor do I<BR>>believe that persons have a constitutional right not<BR>>to see or hear praying or religious symbols.<BR>><BR>>It just irritates me that people are so intolerant<BR>>they cannot give people 15 seconds to say a prayer or<BR>>the courteous of being able to express themselves.<BR>>Asking for one minute is not an unreasonable request<BR>>of the
minority to give to the majority. People can be<BR>>so disrespectful sometimes.<BR>><BR>>Donovan J Arnold<BR>><BR>>--- Sunil Ramalingam <sunilramalingam@hotmail.com><BR>>wrote:<BR>><BR>><BR>>---------------------------------<BR>><BR>>Donovan,<BR>><BR>>Others have already pointed out the Supreme Court<BR>>decisions interpreting the Constitution. That works<BR>>for me. I have lived in a country with a state<BR>>religion, and I've always appreciated the difference<BR>>between that approach and ours. I disagree with your<BR>>views on state action and religion, and am grateful<BR>>the issue has been settled.<BR>><BR>>Sunil<BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>>---------------------------------<BR>><BR>>From: Donovan Arnold
<donovanjarnold2005@yahoo.com><BR>>To: Sunil Ramalingam <sunilramalingam@hotmail.com>,<BR>>vision2020@moscow.com<BR>>Subject: RE: [Vision2020] Public prayer on public<BR>>money<BR>>Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2005 20:27:26 -0700 (PDT)<BR>> >Sunil,<BR>> ><BR>> >Can you please quote me in the Constitution where it<BR>> >says you have a right to be protected from being<BR>> >around religion and prayer? Because I cannot find. I<BR>> >do see where it says the government cannot stop me<BR>> >from practicing my religion, but I cannot find where<BR>> >it says people have to hide all religious writings,<BR>> >symbols, and speak out of the earshot of anyone that<BR>> >may not wish to listen?<BR>> ><BR>> ><BR>> >If you are looking to save time at a public meeting<BR>>
>there are areas that you can cut out that will save<BR>> >more time than the prayer. But again, where does it<BR>> >say that public meetings should run in the most<BR>> >efficient manner as to not waste time or upset<BR>>Sunil's<BR>> >schedule?<BR>> ><BR>> >"It does not follow that you are being forced to<BR>> >practice atheism if you don't pray at a public<BR>> >meeting."<BR>> ><BR>> >Maybe not, but it does follow that if you are<BR>> >preventing us from praying you are preventing us from<BR>> >practicing our religion is says we are suppose to<BR>> >pray. Nor is allowing for prayer forcing a religion<BR>>or<BR>> >establishing a religion.<BR>> ><BR>> >Donovan J Arnold<BR>> ><BR>> ><BR>> ><BR>> >--- Sunil Ramalingam <sunilramalingam@hotmail.com><BR>>
>wrote:<BR>> ><BR>> ><BR>> >---------------------------------<BR>> ><BR>> >Donovan,<BR>> ><BR>> >I want you to be able to say all the prayers you<BR>>want,<BR>> >whenever and wherever you want, as long as you want,<BR>> >as long as I don't have to hear them. I want you to<BR>> >practice your religion, but not at the expense of my<BR>> >time if it's at a public meeting. If we're at your<BR>> >church, I'm more than willing to listen to you pray<BR>> >out loud, because I have the simple choice of not<BR>> >going there at all.<BR>> ><BR>> >It does not follow that you are being forced to<BR>> >practice atheism if you don't pray at a public<BR>> >meeting. You're not going to be dragged to a gulag,<BR>> >or barred from private prayer or from
attending your<BR>> >church. You're simply not going to be able to use up<BR>> >other people's time at a public meeting for something<BR>> >you can do silently at that meeting.<BR>> ><BR>> >Politicians want to pray at public meetings so they<BR>> >can act pious for the cameras and the public. You<BR>> >think W's praying is working out well for us?<BR>> ><BR>> >sunil<BR>> ><BR>> ><BR>> ><BR>> >---------------------------------<BR>> ><BR>> >From: Donovan Arnold <donovanjarnold2005@yahoo.com><BR>> >To: Tom Hansen <thansen@moscow.com>,<BR>> >joanopyr@earthlink.net, vision2020@moscow.com<BR>> >Subject: RE: [Vision2020] Public prayer on public<BR>> >money<BR>> >Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2005 16:31:15 -0700
(PDT)<BR>> > >The Government representing a FAITH or Religion is<BR>> > >against the Constitution Mr. Hansen. Allowing a<BR>> >moment<BR>> > >to pray does not.<BR>> > ><BR>> > >Further, it would be unfair that 95% of the people<BR>> >get<BR>> > >only the same amount of time as the other 5%. The<BR>> > >government represents people, not Gods, so it<BR>>should<BR>> > >be the people, not Gods that get equal time.<BR>> > ><BR>> > >Finally, by not allowing prayer you force people to<BR>> > >follow atheism, by allowing prayer you do not force<BR>> > >atheists to say the prayer. Therefore, it is<BR>> > >discriminatory NOT to allow prayer because you are<BR>> > >preventing them from practicing their faith and<BR>> > >forcing them to practice
another.<BR>> > ><BR>> > >What you are saying is that because my moment of<BR>> > >worship does not suit everybody, I cannot practice<BR>> >it.<BR>> > >This is the state stopping me from my free exercise<BR>> >of<BR>> > >religion.<BR>> > ><BR>> > >Donovan J Arnold<BR>> > ><BR>> > ><BR>> > ><BR>> > >--- Tom Hansen <ththansenomoscowom> wrote:<BR>> > ><BR>> > > > As I have stated twice before, Arnold -<BR>> > > ><BR>> > > > I would be more than willing to support prayer<BR>>at<BR>> > > > all city council sessions,<BR>> > > > provided that each (and EVERY) faith represented<BR>> > > > within Moscow is provided<BR>> > > > "equal time".<BR>> > > ><BR>> > > >
Lacking this possibility, the session further<BR>> >lacks<BR>> > > > equality. And I am<BR>> > > > certain that you wouldn't want that, now would<BR>> >you?<BR>> > > ><BR>> > > > Enough said.<BR>> > > ><BR>> > > > Tom Hansen<BR>> > > > Moscow, Idaho<BR>> > > ><BR>> > > > "If not us, who?<BR>> > > > If not now, when?"<BR>> > > ><BR>> > > > - Unknown<BR>> > > ><BR>> > > > -----Original Message-----<BR>> > > ><BR>> > > > From: Donovan Arnold<BR>> > > > [mamailtoodonovanjarnold05@yahoo.com]<BR>> > > > Sent: Wednesday, August 17, 2005 2:57 PM<BR>> > > > To: Tom Hansen; jojoanopyraearthlinket;<BR>> > > > vision2020@momoscowom<BR>>
> > > Subject: RE: [Vision2020] Public prayer on<BR>>public<BR>> > > > money<BR>> > > ><BR>> > > > Mr. Hansen,<BR>> > > ><BR>> > > > You are only offering circular arguments. A<BR>> >speaker<BR>> > > > can also ignore a prayer completely at a meeting<BR>> > > > too.<BR>> > > > You silly man. So why not let those that believe<BR>> >in<BR>> > > > praying before conducting important business<BR>>pray<BR>> > > > and<BR>> > > > those that wish not to think about something<BR>>else.<BR>> > > > Why<BR>> > > > should those that wish to pray be denied. If you<BR>> > > > allow<BR>> > > > prayer, everyone gets what they want. If you<BR>> > > > disallow<BR>> > > >
prayer only those that wish not to pray get what<BR>> > > > they<BR>> > > > want.<BR>> > > ><BR>> > > > Donovan J Arnold<BR>> > > ><BR>> > > ><BR>> > > ><BR>> > > ><BR>> > ><BR>> > ><BR>> > ><BR>> ><BR>> >____________________________________________________<BR>> > >Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home page<BR>> > >http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs<BR>> > ><BR>> > ><BR>> ><BR>> >_____________________________________________________<BR>> > > List services made available by First Step<BR>> >Internet,<BR>> > > serving the communities of the Palouse since<BR>>1994.<BR>> >
> http://www.fsr.net<BR>> > > mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com<BR>> ><BR>> >ŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻ<BR>> ><BR>> > ><BR>> >_____________________________________________________<BR>> > > List services made available by First Step<BR>> > > Internet,<BR>> > > serving the communities of the Palouse since<BR>>1994.<BR>> > ><BR>> > > http://www.fsr.net<BR>> > ><BR>> > > mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com<BR>> > ><BR>>
>ŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻ<BR>> > ><BR>> ><BR>> >__________________________________________________<BR>> >Do You Yahoo!?<BR>> >Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam<BR>>protection around<BR>> >http://mail.yahoo.com<BR>><BR>>__________________________________________________<BR>>Do You Yahoo!?<BR>>Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around<BR>>http://mail.yahoo.com<BR></FONT></BLOCKQUOTE></div></html>