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<DIV>Visionaries:</DIV>
<DIV>Please delete this email if you are not interested in a discussion of Doug
Wilson's claim to be a Presbyterian. Since I will not respond directly to
any post on Dale Courtney's blog <right-mind.us> because of
the type of posters he allows to enter his cyberspace home - I am
forced to fall back on the hospitality of First Step and 2020. I apologize
for that.</DIV>
<DIV>R.H.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Dale:</DIV>
<DIV>A short analogy is perhaps in order. I love to watch Professional
Bull riding. I know the "inside" lingo, I know how to score a ride, I own
a couple of pair of blue jeans, I can discuss bull blood-lines and past
performances of the riders. I know a lot about the PBR - but all that
knowledge, all that admiration, and even all my respect for the both the riders
and the bulls, does not make me a member of the PBR. I don't
ride bulls I watch other people ride bulls in the same way that Doug Wilson et
al. aren't Presbyterians just because they copied Presbyterian church
governance.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><STRONG>Please share with interested readers the Presbyterian (capital P)
session that Doug Wilson, or Christ Church, is accountable to,
including any in the relatively comprehensive list that you supplied on
your blog site. </STRONG></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Doug's desperate grasp of the Presbyterian life-buoy was undoubtedly
intended to provide some level of recognizable legitimacy and oversight.
Doug probably is unhappy about vague references to Neo-Nazis connections in
the headline of the opinion piece. I'm willing to bet that most, if not
all, main stream Presbyterians share the same repulsion at being
connected to Doug Wilson and Christ Church. But let's
rely on Doug's own words to substantiate (or not) his claim to being a
Presbyterian.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>The following is a selection of a transcript made of a Idaho
Board of Tax Appeals on November 25, 2002. The initials GD stand for
Greg Dickison, the initials DW indicate Doug Wilson.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><FONT face=Arial>"GD:<SPAN
style="mso-tab-count: 1"> </SPAN>“Is that when the
church was first established?”</FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><o:p><FONT
face=Arial> </FONT></o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><FONT face=Arial>DW:<SPAN
style="mso-tab-count: 1"> </SPAN>“No, the church was
established in 1975 and began meeting on the Lord’s Day weekly for worship.
Another gentleman, Lowell Carlson was the minister for the first year and a half
or so.<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>He took a position in
another town, moved away and I was the song leader at the time and became the
person responsible for preaching, presenting the sermons, when he left so for
all but a year and a half or so in
<st1:place><st1:PlaceName>Christ</st1:PlaceName>
<st1:PlaceType>Church</st1:PlaceType></st1:place>’s history I’ve been
minister.”</FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><o:p><FONT
face=Arial> </FONT></o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><FONT face=Arial>GD:<SPAN
style="mso-tab-count: 1"> </SPAN>The name was originally
Community Evangelical Fellowship.</FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><o:p><FONT
face=Arial> </FONT></o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><FONT face=Arial>DW:<SPAN
style="mso-tab-count: 1"> </SPAN>Actually no.<SPAN
style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>The original name was Faith Fellowship
but then that was confused with another church in
<st1:City><st1:place>Pullman</st1:place></st1:City> so we changed the name, I
forget when to Community Evangelical Fellowship which is what it was for the
majority of our history and then a few years ago we changed the name to
<st1:place><st1:PlaceName>Christ</st1:PlaceName>
<st1:PlaceType>Church</st1:PlaceType></st1:place>.” </FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><o:p><FONT
face=Arial> </FONT></o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><FONT face=Arial>GD:<SPAN
style="mso-tab-count: 1"> </SPAN>“Do you remember
exactly when that was when that name was changed?”</FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><o:p><FONT
face=Arial> </FONT></o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><FONT face=Arial>DW:<SPAN
style="mso-tab-count: 1"> </SPAN>“No, not precisely, it’s
within the last two or three years.”</FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><o:p><FONT
face=Arial> </FONT></o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><FONT face=Arial>GD:<SPAN
style="mso-tab-count: 1"> </SPAN>I believe that over the
years the governance of <st1:place><st1:PlaceName>Christ</st1:PlaceName>
<st1:PlaceType>Church</st1:PlaceType></st1:place> is evolved, if you will.”
</FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><o:p><FONT
face=Arial> </FONT></o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><FONT face=Arial>DW:<SPAN
style="mso-tab-count: 1"> </SPAN>“Yes, that would be a fair
statement.</FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><o:p><FONT
face=Arial> </FONT></o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><FONT face=Arial>GD:<SPAN
style="mso-tab-count: 1"> </SPAN>“How has it currently
governed?”</FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><o:p><FONT
face=Arial> </FONT></o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><FONT face=Arial>DW:<SPAN
style="mso-tab-count: 1"> </SPAN>“It is currently governed by
a session of elders,<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>Our form of
church government is presbyterian, so we have a session of elders which
corporately is the highest authority in the life of the local church.<SPAN
style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>I serve as one of the elders, there are
about thirteen, I have to count, thirteen elders, and I am the elder responsible
for the ministry of the Word and sacrament, but there, we have ruling elders,
teaching elders and ministers. Three different kinds of elders but corporately
they come together.<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>We meet weekly
at the <st1:place><st1:PlaceName>Christ</st1:PlaceName>
<st1:PlaceType>Church</st1:PlaceType></st1:place> building, we meet weekly from
6 and <st1:time Hour="19" Minute="30">7:30</st1:time> Thursday mornings and make
governance decisions, pastoral decision, liturgical decisions [short phrase that
is unclear]”<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><o:p><FONT
face=Arial> </FONT></o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><FONT face=Arial>GD:<SPAN
style="mso-tab-count: 1"> </SPAN>“How long has there
been a regular session of elders that’s overseen the church?”</FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><o:p><FONT
face=Arial> </FONT></o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><FONT face=Arial>DW:<SPAN
style="mso-tab-count: 1"> </SPAN>“We didn’t have an
established government when I began preaching in 1977.<SPAN
style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>We didn’t have any established
government at all.<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>I attribute this
to the fact that it was the 70s.<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes">
</SPAN>[laughter]<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>It was a strange
time for all of us.<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>But we were
just sorta out there.<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>We were
meeting on Sundays and preaching and singing doing what churches do but we
didn’t have any established constitution, confession of faith, church
government.<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>I began, I was the de
facto minister,<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>I began a meeting
of responsible brothers, we called them, you know people who began making
decisions we began making decisions that group evolved into our elders.<SPAN
style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>We were pretty young to be elders at the
time.<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>It evolved into a group of
elders probably within the first few years so by the early 80s we were
essentially at the local level functioning under the kind of government that we
have now.”</FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><o:p><FONT
face=Arial> </FONT></o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><FONT face=Arial>GD:<SPAN
style="mso-tab-count: 1"> </SPAN>“How many elders are
there currently?”</FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><o:p><FONT
face=Arial> </FONT></o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><FONT face=Arial>DW:<SPAN
style="mso-tab-count: 1"> </SPAN>“About 13, I have to go back
and count</FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><o:p><FONT
face=Arial> </FONT></o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><FONT face=Arial>GD:<SPAN
style="mso-tab-count: 1"> </SPAN>“And there are also
deacons that that help in the governance?”</FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><o:p><FONT
face=Arial> </FONT></o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><FONT face=Arial>DW:<SPAN
style="mso-tab-count: 1"> </SPAN>“Correct.<SPAN
style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>There is a board of deacons and there’s
a board of elders.<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>The elders are
responsible for the spiritual, pastoral, liturgical life of the church.<SPAN
style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>The deacons are responsible for the
financial, practical, physical side of the things that need to be taken care
of.<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>So, Eric Burnett, our Treasurer
is one of the deacons, so the financial affairs, the budget is prepared by the
deacons.<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>The elders approve the
budget, but the deacons prepare, do the research for the annual budget.<SPAN
style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>We have a deacon responsible for
computer services,.<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>He’s the
exorcist,<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>[laughter]<SPAN
style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>We have deacons responsible for the
computers, the deacons fund, for helping families who are strapped, physical
services and practical services are overseen by the deacons, and then the
broader oversight is done by the elders.</FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><o:p><FONT
face=Arial> </FONT></o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><FONT face=Arial>GD:<SPAN
style="mso-tab-count: 1"> </SPAN>“I take it as the
minister of <st1:place><st1:PlaceName>Christ</st1:PlaceName>
<st1:PlaceType>Church</st1:PlaceType></st1:place> you have studied other
churches and church government and how that functions?”</FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><o:p><FONT
face=Arial> </FONT></o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><FONT face=Arial>DW:<SPAN
style="mso-tab-count: 1"> </SPAN>“Correct. Yes”</FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><o:p><FONT
face=Arial> </FONT></o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><FONT face=Arial>GD:<SPAN
style="mso-tab-count: 1"> </SPAN>“Is there anything
usual about this form of government or is this a common presbyterian form used
by other churches?”</FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><o:p><FONT
face=Arial> </FONT></o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><FONT face=Arial>DW:<SPAN
style="mso-tab-count: 1"> </SPAN>“This is a common
presbyterian form of government.<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes">
</SPAN>Broadly speaking there is three different kinds of church
government:<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>One is independent, the
other is presbyterian, and the third is episcopal.<SPAN
style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>So Roman Catholic and Episcopal Church
[unclear] so obviously, Presbyterian Church is presbyterial in their operation
and that means that our presbyterian form of government means that we are
connected to a broader set of churches.<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes">
</SPAN>So there are, we belong to the Confederation of Reformed Evangelicals
that’s the CRE.<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>There are 19
churches involved in that presbytery.<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes">
</SPAN>We have an annual presbytery meeting each church sends two delegates to
presbytery.<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>This last year
presbytery was in Bellvue in October.<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes">
</SPAN>Next year presbytery will be in
<st1:City><st1:place>Houston</st1:place></st1:City>.<SPAN
style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>So we are connected to a national
presbytery and our form of government, with some adjustments here and there is
typically presbyterian.”</FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><FONT
face=Arial></FONT> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><FONT face=Arial>The long and
short of it is Doug Wilson has grafted a form of governance that he likes, the
presbytery, onto Christ Church and the CREC churches. Who
cares? I ask again, what session of any of the branches of the
Presbyterian Church you mentioned, is Christ Church or Doug Wilson a member
of? Oh, and now that I think about it, how 'bout answering this
question too. Which session of the Presbyterian Church has declared Doug
Wilson a heretic?</FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><FONT
face=Arial></FONT> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><FONT face=Arial>Rose
Huskey</FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal
style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"> </P></DIV></FONT></BODY></HTML>