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<DIV><FONT size=4>Phil,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4>Before I answer your last comments, I need to get some
information from which may alter my outlook on this issue.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4>You write:</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4><FONT size=3>"And don't give me the analog to Butler, because
you are grasping at straws <BR>with that one. Unlike you, I was active
against the Order and did my part <BR>to see them go to jail and or get
nailed. From Butler to Matthews to all of <BR>the Neo-Nazis there and in
Cheney, those individuals were dangerous, armed <BR>and committed real live acts
of violence, murdered people, Wayne. They had <BR>death lists, Wayne, were
you ever on them?"</FONT><BR></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4>Perhaps Phil you could be kind enough to describe in some
detail the exact role you played in seeing that the Order was jailed and/or
nailed?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4>I am sure that if your were to do this, then your credentials
as civil rights activist would be very impressive to all V 2020ers and certainly
give your arguments much more weight.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4>While you at it, perhaps you would tell us which death lists
you were on? That would be really impressive!</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4><BR>Art Deco (Wayne A. Fox)<BR><A
href="mailto:deco@moscow.com">deco@moscow.com</A><BR></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4>----- Original Message ----- </FONT>
<DIV><FONT size=4>From: "Phil Nisbet" <</FONT><A
href="mailto:pcnisbet1@hotmail.com"><FONT
size=4>pcnisbet1@hotmail.com</FONT></A><FONT size=4>></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4>To: <</FONT><A href="mailto:vision2020@moscow.com"><FONT
size=4>vision2020@moscow.com</FONT></A><FONT size=4>></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4>Sent: Monday, June 13, 2005 8:09 AM</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4>Subject: Re: [Vision2020] An Open Letter [Continuing the
Thread]</FONT></DIV></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4><BR></FONT></DIV><FONT size=4>> Wayne,<BR>> <BR>>
Amazing, ten whole pages of screed in multiple fonts and many colors.<BR>>
<BR>> The pseudo-dramatic, pseudo-heroic post that you wrote is full of error
and <BR>> ripe with the exact things Martin Niemoeller warned of.<BR>>
<BR>> The Nazis did not start out sending people to the ovens, Wayne, they
used <BR>> the law to dehumanize and remove the citizenship of classes of
people. The <BR>> Nurnburg laws focused on removing people from trades
and professions, from <BR>> government service and from industries and
properties.<BR>> <BR>> I can look at your comments and see exactly that
behavior. You plan to use <BR>> government to target a group you find
objectionable and to see laws passed <BR>> that will make those people second
class citizens, or as your buddies have <BR>> frequently claimed, run them
out of town.<BR>> <BR>> And please spare me the weird dramatics that you
are a group of powerless <BR>> folks fighting some giant army of crazed
religious fanatics. The CCers are <BR>> a couple thousand people tops
and considering the stringency of their <BR>> religious system, they are not
exactly like to get droves of followers. On <BR>> the other hand, I
have seen the politics you bring to bear and the mass <BR>> meetings you hold
and the rabid dogmatism that you wield as a political <BR>> weapon in this
community.<BR>> <BR>> And culture war my eye. You are indeed engaged
in a culture war, Wayne, one <BR>> in which you want to see the initiation of
your own system with its own <BR>> values and mores forced on other
folks. Many of us are just as worried <BR>> about you and your friend’s
power as we are of any supposed potential take <BR>> over by the
CCers.<BR>> <BR>> And yes Wayne, just like Hitler, you can make statements
like;<BR>> <BR>> "None of the cult's critics is advocating, let alone
planning to inter, <BR>> brand, gas, hang, and/or otherwise inflict physical
violence on the members <BR>> of the Christ Church Cult! No one is
coming for them!"<BR>> <BR>> But you are coming for them Wayne, by
declaring them enemies of the State, <BR>> boycotting them and otherwise
using propaganda that paints them as fiends. <BR>> That is what the
Nazis did Wayne, they started small and slowly grew their <BR>> Final
Solution.<BR>> <BR>> And don't give me the analog to Butler, because you
are grasping at straws <BR>> with that one. Unlike you, I was active
against the Order and did my part <BR>> to see them go to jail and or get
nailed. From Butler to Matthews to all of <BR>> the Neo-Nazis there and
in Cheney, those individuals were dangerous, armed <BR>> and committed real
live acts of violence, murdered people, Wayne. They had <BR>> death
lists, Wayne, were you ever on them?<BR>> <BR>> I realize there is a lot
of the nation building mythos in you that seems to <BR>> insist that people
came here to flee religion, Wayne, but the reality is <BR>> that most of the
people who came here came here so that they could practice <BR>> their
religion free of governmental interferences. Most of the initial <BR>>
colonies had very stringent religious tones and all of our Ivy League <BR>>
Schools were founded by religious institutions. The use of government to
<BR>> suppress the religious beliefs of people is what is Un-American,
Wayne.<BR>> <BR>> My father was a decorated Vet who served his country for
34 years in three <BR>> wars, Wayne. I served my country for three as
an 11B. Most of the people <BR>> who changed their names in the US
during the years 1914-1945 were doing so <BR>> because there was a pretty
strong antipathy to German Names. Anti-Semitism <BR>> has wandered all
over the world, Wayne and it’s had its Silver Shirts in <BR>> Seattle that my
grandfather used to battle on the docks in the 1920's, it <BR>> was not any
stronger in the Army than in civilian life in general.<BR>> <BR>> FDR, who
I am sure is one of your grander Heroes, sent people back to <BR>> certain
death rather then let more Jews into the US. He also embraced the <BR>>
KKK, while his wife preached civil rights. The southern strategy was FDR's
<BR>> long before it was Nixon's and Anti-Semitism thrived in memo after memo
that <BR>> rolled through the Roosevelt administration.<BR>> <BR>> And
then Wayne, you sprint off this little statement;<BR>> <BR>> "It is
diabolically disgusting, especially to those of us of Jewish or <BR>> partial
Jewish descent, that you would stoop to quote Niemoeller, who would <BR>> be
most vigorously protesting the dicta and goals of the Christ Church Cult,
<BR>> in order to make yourself appear to be a righteous hero."<BR>>
<BR>> Wayne, I am Jewish, you are not. You are not of "partial Jewish
Decent", <BR>> what ever that is supposed to mean. I know full well
what it means to be <BR>> hated and hunted simply because I am a Jew. I
doubt you have any conception <BR>> of that Wayne and it’s diabolically
disgusting to me that you think you can <BR>> play games and claim that you
do.<BR>> <BR>> You can not use science to prove or disprove theology,
Wayne. By every <BR>> thing that we who are scientists hold valid,
proofs based upon the physical <BR>> universe and its laws can not be used to
see beyond the threshold of the <BR>> creation of the Universe itself.
Any person trying to use science to prove <BR>> or disprove theology is by
all rights a quack. For all we know the universe <BR>> was created by
Zot the Eternal Earwig, it has no bearing on the study of the <BR>> actual
physical conditions and laws that exist in the Universe.<BR>> <BR>> Then
this;<BR>> <BR>> "This kind of thinking, which you are criticizing by
calling it socialistic. <BR>> . ."<BR>> <BR>> What I said, Wayne was
National Socialist. That’s NAZI for the more <BR>> educated among us,
not simply socialist. You were suggesting that it’s OK <BR>> to target
groups if you disagree with their theological ideas and think you <BR>> can
show them to be wrong by your standards.<BR>> <BR>> The NAZI's, Wayne,
defined Jews as enemies of the state and all Jewish <BR>> thought as
dangerous and wrong headed. They had huge tracts showing that <BR>>
everything written by any Jew at any time in History was false and dangerous
<BR>> to them and to their kind. Just like you claiming that the CCers
are out to <BR>> get you, the NAZIs claimed that Jews were out to get
them.<BR>> <BR>> So they first defined Jews as not citizens and antipathic
to Germaness, then <BR>> they wanted to ship Jews elsewhere and finally
decided on their Final <BR>> Solution.<BR>> <BR>> All I have to do is
read this little snippet of your posting to see similar <BR>> things in the
works;<BR>> <BR>> "The cult is not going to be run out of town. Its
leader and some of his <BR>> paid minions may leave town because of possible
future actions in the <BR>> criminal/civil justice system, because they may
come to realize that their <BR>> dicta, dishonesty, and actions are horribly
out of sync with the majority of <BR>> area residents and thus their ultimate
success here is unlikely, and/or they <BR>> cannot bear being the
laughingstocks some have become because of their <BR>> asinine words and
actions."<BR>> <BR>> In other words, Wayne, you are planning on using
governmental action against <BR>> people to force them out. That’s the
little routine you mean by "the <BR>> criminal/civil justice system", that
you plan on using the force of the <BR>> government against the leadership of
a religious group. And once the <BR>> leaders are gone, Wayne, what
will be your Final Solution to the CCer <BR>> question?<BR>> <BR>> Phil
Nisbet<BR>> <BR>>
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