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<P><BR>I repeat myself....jumping to every conclusion possible.</P>
<P><BR><BR><BR>*~*The real voyage of discovery consists not in seeking new landscapes, but in having new eyes.*~* </P></DIV>
<DIV></DIV><BR><BR><BR>----Original Message Follows----<BR>From: Donovan Arnold <donovanjarnold2005@yahoo.com><BR>To: Julie C <joodge@hotmail.com>, vision2020@moscow.com<BR>Subject: Re: [Vision2020] UI skipping out on taxes?<BR>Date: Tue, 24 May 2005 13:18:43 -0700 (PDT)<BR><BR>Oh, I see, I am sorry. I guess I did put words in your<BR>mouth Ms. C.<BR><BR>I thought when you said, "I do think that an<BR>institution such as UI should have<BR>certain exceptions to the rule," I thought you meant<BR>that UI did not have to follow the rules. I can see<BR>your point of how I was confused. I am glad you do not<BR>think that UI can skip out on their taxes and their<BR>are no exceptions for them.<BR><BR>Take Care,<BR><BR>Donovan J Arnold<BR><BR><BR>---------------------------------<BR><BR>Ok, I suppose I should accept the fact that if i make<BR>the mistake of replying to Donald Arnovan,
that words<BR>will be put in my mouth and overgeneralizations will<BR>happen, but it still continues to astound me.<BR><BR>Before I get accused of anything, NEVER did I say that<BR>the University of Idaho does not follow the law. I<BR>never even agreed with the fact that UI does not pay<BR>taxes, because I don't know nor care. I am a proud<BR>Vandal Alumnae and gave many of my hard earned<BR>burger-serving and milkshake-mixing dollars to that<BR>institution. They employ a lot of people, they give a<BR>lot back to the community, etc. That is all. Geez.<BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR>*~*The real voyage of discovery consists not in<BR>seeking new landscapes, but in having new eyes.*~*<BR><BR><BR><BR>----Original Message Follows----<BR>From: Donovan Arnold <donovanjarnold2005@yahoo.com><BR>To: Julie C <joodge@hotmail.com>,<BR>vision2020@moscow.com<BR>Subject: Re:
[Vision2020] UI skipping out on taxes?<BR>Date: Tue, 24 May 2005 12:04:14 -0700 (PDT)<BR><BR>Julie C wrote,<BR><BR>"I do think that an institution such as UI should have<BR>certain exceptions to the rule, as they are most<BR>likely the oldest organization in town (as UI was<BR>founded in 1889, a year before Idaho was even it's own<BR>state), and are most likely the largest employer in<BR>our fair community."<BR><BR>So Julie, how many employees and for how long does a<BR>company have to exist before, according to your<BR>values, they do not have to pay taxes and follow the<BR>law?<BR><BR>Curious minds want to know.<BR><BR>Second, you write, "Can we say the same about the<BR>institutions you are defending, Mr. Arnold?"<BR><BR>I am not defending any institution. I am defending my<BR>belief in not harassing people because of their<BR>religion. I do this because I fear mine may be next
or<BR>somewhere on the list.<BR><BR>Take Care,<BR><BR>Donovan J Arnold<BR><BR><BR><BR>---------------------------------<BR><BR>Donovan says:<BR><BR>"Or how about going after the UI for<BR>skipping out on taxes on parking permits and being in<BR>the wrong zoning district? I doubt it."<BR><BR><BR>I've read many comments made by Mr. Arnold regarding<BR>the equal application of taxes. I stay out of this<BR>whole NSA debate business, because I believe if I<BR>don't know enough about something I should keep my<BR>mouth shut.<BR><BR>But...I do think that an institution such as UI should<BR>have certain exceptions to the rule, as they are most<BR>likely the oldest organization in town (as UI was<BR>founded in 1889, a year before Idaho was even it's own<BR>state), and are most likely the largest employer in<BR>our fair community. Tremendous revenue is also brought<BR>to our city because of the
influx of students each<BR>year, not to mention conferences and events, such as<BR>Life on Wheels, Vandal Friday, athletic events, etc.<BR>All (in my opinion) positive events for our community.<BR>Can we say the same about the institutions you are<BR>defending, Mr. Arnold? How many local people does NSA<BR>employ?<BR><BR>Just a thought.<BR><BR>JC<BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR>*~*The real voyage of discovery consists not in<BR>seeking new landscapes, but in having new eyes.*~*<BR><BR><BR><BR>----Original Message Follows----<BR>From: Donovan Arnold <donovanjarnold2005@yahoo.com><BR>To: J Ford <privatejf32@hotmail.com>,<BR>vision2020@moscow.com<BR>Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Doing Kai's work for him<BR>Date: Tue, 24 May 2005 08:02:40 -0700 (PDT)<BR><BR>J writes,<BR><BR>"I could care less if they were this church or that<BR>one"<BR><BR>Come on! You really expect us to believe you
really<BR>care about what other churches and non-profits are<BR>doing? Are you going after Girl Scouts of America for<BR>not paying taxes on their cookies (I really like the<BR>mint ones best)? Or how about going after the UI for<BR>skipping out on taxes on parking permits and being in<BR>the wrong zoning district? I doubt it.<BR><BR>You and a handful of others on here have done nothing<BR>but make part-time/full-time jobs out of looking for<BR>things that Christ Church and NSA have done wrong.<BR>Even to the point of causing vandalism! And no I am<BR>not going to paw through the V2020 archives to prove<BR>my point.<BR><BR>I am not saying that I am not guilty of bigotry<BR>against NSA and Christ Church. Of course I am. I<BR>disagree with many of their teachings. But I am not<BR>BLINDED with rage and hatred. To judge all people at<BR>NSA and Christ Church the same without knowing them
is<BR>as bigoted and as foul as judging all members of the<BR>Mormon Church, all Catholics, all Jews, or all Muslims<BR>the same based on what their religious leaders preach.<BR>They are all individuals that deserve to be treated as<BR>such like any other member of the community.<BR><BR>I may not regard Doug Wilson as a man I would attend<BR>church with. However, members of Christ Church are not<BR>keying my car, vandalizing my property, littering on<BR>my sidewalk, letting their dogs lose on my garbage<BR>cans, playing loud music in the middle of the night<BR>when I am trying to sleep, or blowing cigarette smoke<BR>through my living room window. In effect, they do not<BR>bother me nearly as much as many other people in this<BR>community.<BR><BR>Much ado has been made about the comments of Doug<BR>Wilson. I ask, WHO CARES? It is absolutely ridiculous<BR>how people want to destroy the
lives of anyone who so<BR>much as buys a cup of coffee from Brucer's or says<BR>"Hi" to Paul Kimmell. Why? I ask. Is your hatred and<BR>boredom run that deep? Can I not buy a sandwich from<BR>Co-Op and coffee from Brucers to go with it without<BR>being branded a liberal or a Kirker?<BR><BR>Now people are saying NSA and CC are not even donating<BR>back to the community or that it is not enough???<BR><BR>THAT IS BS! Who are you to say that donating blood<BR>(life) is not enough? Who are YOU to say that giving<BR>people the education to stay off the streets and take<BR>care of their family is not enough? You are nobody to<BR>say such a thing. We are not privy to how much money<BR>the members of Christ Church give to charities or<BR>organizations. So to proclaim such a statement as they<BR>do not give is the height of arrogance.<BR><BR>Unless you have undeniable evidence that
you<BR>contribute more money and resources then the members<BR>of Christ Church you are a hypocrite for attacking<BR>them for their donations and community service.<BR><BR>There are many things that can be said about Christ<BR>Church that we can disagree with. And trust me, I do!<BR>Most of us do. But lying about Christ Church or NSA to<BR>make others hate them for what they are NOT doing is<BR>wrong. To spend huge amount of resources dividing our<BR>community over the religious beliefs of any group of<BR>people is wrong, pointless, and destructive to our<BR>community.<BR><BR>Please stop dividing our community over religion. This<BR>has gone too far. No church can stand up to the level<BR>of criticism and standards that are placed on NSA and<BR>Christ Church at this point. The community would never<BR>agree on any single religion.<BR><BR>I welcome debate about the teachings of CC, but in
a<BR>respectful and productive manner. Not one that rips<BR>our community apart. No revenge against any Church is<BR>worth this much hatred and destruction of the<BR>community. Moscow deserves better.<BR><BR>Take Care,<BR><BR>Donovan J Arnold<BR><BR><BR>Mr. Ted;<BR><BR>You state, correctly in my opinion, that profit<BR>organizations that pay<BR>taxes<BR>is a way for them to help support the community that<BR>they are supported<BR>by.<BR>Non-profits such as churches, etc. usually also give<BR>back to the<BR>community<BR>by way of charity benefits/donations, openings,<BR>gallary shows, and in<BR>the<BR>case of churches - especially in this community - they<BR>give back to the<BR>community by way of assistance to the poor and/or<BR>needy in ways that<BR>far<BR>out-weigh what taxes some pay...such as food/clothing<BR>banks, energy<BR>assistance, gas assistance, day care, education, and<BR>so
on.<BR><BR>Christ Church, on the other hand, does not take part<BR>in any of those<BR>activities. Oh, sure they "volunteer" their building<BR>two/three times a<BR>year<BR>for the blood bank, but so do other places such as the<BR>MSD, other<BR>churches,<BR>and so on. Christ Church has refused to take part in<BR>the food bank<BR>simply<BR>because the food bank accepts federal monies and<BR>foods. But neither do<BR>they<BR>have one of their own open to the public. Rather,<BR>they help the people<BR>in<BR>their church THEY feel are in need. I am not<BR>down-playing that, I'm<BR>just<BR>stating a fact. It is not, however, without a lecture<BR>and demand of<BR>attending or at least reading books on how to better<BR>manage your<BR>family's<BR>finances so you don't get into a position of being<BR>needy again. No,
I<BR>am<BR>not saying that is totally a bad thing either; what I<BR>am saying is that<BR>there are circumstances that can not be helped and<BR>being called a<BR>"slacker"<BR>by people you turn to for help - does not help.<BR><BR>Restricting the expansion of a church owned business<BR>that first sneaks<BR>into<BR>down town and THEN applies for permits needs to be<BR>examined and is a<BR>good<BR>thing and the responsible thing to do. It was my<BR>impression that the<BR>church<BR>should be able to hold itself up to the light and be<BR>clean. CC can not<BR>do<BR>that when they continue to impose themselves into<BR>areas they are not<BR>allowed<BR>and may not be welcomed (such as residential areas<BR>that are not zoned<BR>for<BR>ANY kind of business much less a school or college.)<BR><BR>I could care less if they were this church or that one<BR>- if it is
doing<BR>something behind the scenes and then crying "foul"<BR>when caught - they<BR>deserve to be held up for public comment and<BR>discipline. THAT is what<BR>is<BR>going on with CC, despite what some people would have<BR>the community<BR>believe.<BR>--- J Ford <privatejf32@hotmail.com> wrote:<BR><BR>> Mr. Ted;<BR>><BR>> You state, correctly in my opinion, that profit<BR>> organizations that pay taxes<BR>> is a way for them to help support the community that<BR>> they are supported by.<BR>> Non-profits such as churches, etc. usually also give<BR>> back to the community<BR>> by way of charity benefits/donations, openings,<BR>> gallary shows, and in the<BR>> case of churches - especially in this community -<BR>> they give back to the<BR>> community by way of assistance to the poor and/or<BR>> needy in ways that far<BR>>
out-weigh what taxes some pay...such as<BR>> food/clothing banks, energy<BR>> assistance, gas assistance, day care, education, and<BR>> so on.<BR>><BR>> Christ Church, on the other hand, does not take part<BR>> in any of those<BR>> activities. Oh, sure they "volunteer" their<BR>> building two/three times a year<BR>> for the blood bank, but so do other places such as<BR>> the MSD, other churches,<BR>> and so on. Christ Church has refused to take part<BR>> in the food bank simply<BR>> because the food bank accepts federal monies and<BR>> foods. But neither do they<BR>> have one of their own open to the public. Rather,<BR>> they help the people in<BR>> their church THEY feel are in need. I am not<BR>> down-playing that, I'm just<BR>> stating a fact. It is not, however,
without a<BR>> lecture and demand of<BR>> attending or at least reading books on how to better<BR>> manage your family's<BR>> finances so you don't get into a position of being<BR>> needy again. No, I am<BR>> not saying that is totally a bad thing either; what<BR>> I am saying is that<BR>> there are circumstances that can not be helped and<BR>> being called a "slacker"<BR>> by people you turn to for help - does not help.<BR>><BR>> Restricting the expansion of a church owned business<BR>> that first sneaks into<BR>> down town and THEN applies for permits needs to be<BR>> examined and is a good<BR>> thing and the responsible thing to do. It was my<BR>> impression that the church<BR>> should be able to hold itself up to the light and be<BR>> clean. CC can not do<BR>> that when they continue to
impose themselves into<BR>> areas they are not allowed<BR>> and may not be welcomed (such as residential areas<BR>> that are not zoned for<BR>> ANY kind of business much less a school or college.)<BR>><BR>> I could care less if they were this church or that<BR>> one - if it is doing<BR>> something behind the scenes and then crying "foul"<BR>> when caught - they<BR>> deserve to be held up for public comment and<BR>> discipline. THAT is what is<BR>> going on with CC, despite what some people would<BR>> have the community believe.<BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>> >From: tbertruss@aol.com<BR>> >To: curley@turbonet.com, editor@lataheagle.com,<BR>> vision2020@moscow.com<BR>> >Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Doing Kai's work for him<BR>> >Date: Tue, 24 May 2005 00:47:39 -0400<BR>> ><BR>>
><BR>> >Mike et. al.<BR>> ><BR>> >Thanks for your clarification about property<BR>> taxation in Moscow. Perhaps<BR>> >the tax exempt status of NSA is a separate legal<BR>> issue from the CBD zoning<BR>> >code. But nonetheless I know of property tax<BR>> paying citizens in Moscow who<BR>> >view the expansion of tax exempt entities in the<BR>> downtown core, which does<BR>> >feature some rather expensive property (for<BR>> Moscow), as a cause for<BR>> >concern. The expansion of such entities means<BR>> other property tax paying<BR>> >citizens in effect pay for certain publicly funded<BR>> services that the tax<BR>> >exempt entities are not paying for.<BR>> ><BR>> >I think the logic of this involves the idea that a<BR>> tax exempt entity is<BR>> >doing
some "good" for the community that somehow<BR>> offsets the fact they are<BR>> >not paying property tax. You listed museums, art<BR>> galleries and public<BR>> >offices. There may be disagreement on the "good"<BR>> some of these entities do<BR>> >that justifies their tax exemption, but the<BR>> assumption is made they are<BR>> >doing a "good" which offsets the fact they are not<BR>> paying property tax.<BR>> ><BR>> >The tax exempt status of religious entities has<BR>> traditionally been viewed,<BR>> >I think, with this kind of logic in mind. Religion<BR>> is not a profit<BR>> >oriented business, but an institution that provides<BR>> for an important human<BR>> >need, thus the tax exemption. Of course the tax<BR>> exempt status of many<BR>> >churches in the
USA is very controversial with the<BR>> political activism<BR>> >inherent in their conduct, political activity which<BR>> is not supposed to be<BR>> >happening with the granting of their tax exemption<BR>> as a religious entity.<BR>> ><BR>> >If you have studied this issue, you know that in<BR>> some cities in the USA<BR>> >there have been restrictions placed upon how much<BR>> property can be placed<BR>> >into tax exempt status due to association with a<BR>> religion. I think in part<BR>> >this is just simple economics. The cities cannot<BR>> afford to place a large<BR>> >bulk of valuable property into a property tax<BR>> exempt status.<BR>> ><BR>> >Moscow may not have had to face such a problem, but<BR>> we do not know the<BR>> >future.<BR>> ><BR>> >Thanks for
your input.<BR>> ><BR>> >Ted Moffett<BR>> ><BR>> >-----Original Message-----<BR>> >From: Michael Curley <curley@turbonet.com><BR>> >To: editor@lataheagle.com; vision2020@moscow.com;<BR>> Tbertruss@aol.com<BR>> >Sent: Mon, 23 May 2005 14:20:32 -0700<BR>> >Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Doing Kai's work for him<BR>> ><BR>> ><BR>> >Ted and Kai:<BR>> ><BR>> >As a PS to my prior post to Kai, I would add:<BR>> ><BR>> >I don't think the issues have anything to do with<BR>> tax status. In<BR>> >fact NSA is income tax exempt, but the building has<BR>> been ruled to be<BR>> >taxable for Latah County property tax purposes.<BR>> >Many uses are permitted downtown (and elsewhere in<BR>> town) that are tax-<BR>> >exempt. The alternative high
school is tax exempt.<BR>> Museums, art<BR>> >galleries, and public offices--all allowed<BR>> downtown--might be tax<BR>> >exempt (from both income and property taxes).<BR>> >It doesn't matter where a tax exempt entity locates<BR>> as far as taxes<BR>> >are concerned (except perhaps in the Research<BR>> Technology Office<BR>> >zone). If a public library occupies a $1 million<BR>> building, it<BR>> >doesn't matter if it's downtown or somewhere else<BR>> in the city that it<BR>> >is legally permitted. The city "loses" (actually,<BR>> just does not<BR>> >collect) the same amount of property tax either<BR>> way. The city does<BR>> >not receive any sales tax from any entity, nor of<BR>> course, any income<BR>> >tax.<BR>> ><BR>> >Again, I do not know
what was in the heart of each<BR>> Council member at<BR>> >the time the downtown zoning code was passed, but<BR>> it makes sense to<BR>> >me that the distinction between commercial schools<BR>> and other schools<BR>> >related to the "commercial" and personal<BR>> service/retail nature of<BR>> >commercial schools rather than any tax exempt<BR>> issue.<BR>> ><BR>> >Mike Curley<BR>> ><BR>> ><BR>> ><BR>><BR>=== message truncated ===<BR><BR><BR><BR><BR>__________________________________<BR>Do you Yahoo!?<BR>Yahoo! Mail - Helps protect you from nasty viruses.<BR>http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail<BR><BR>_____________________________________________________<BR> List services made available by First Step<BR>Internet,<BR> serving the communities of the Palouse since
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